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i never got any money from you

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[Music]

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ufo might just as well stand for

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unprecedented financial opportunity

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[Applause]

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be normal this is the saucer life a

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podcast notre examine concepts events or

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people orbiting the world of flying

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saucers few preconceptions snark when

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justified no belief no debunking no idea

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how this is going to go this is the

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strange case of carlos alendi

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or carlos allende or you can call it the

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strange case of carl allen i don't care

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i really don't

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i'm done with him um

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so this is going to be a

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i don't want to say a different sort of

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episode i don't want to say a weird

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episode but as i was putting it together

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one of the things that really came

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across to me is that i had intended this

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to be part of the morris k jesup episode

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so it's

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every time i say this is going to be a

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shorter episode than i expect it to be

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it ends up being like an hour and 20

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minutes long so i have i have no

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expectations of what the length is of

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this but i will say this there is going

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to be more

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documents and snippets than

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maybe not than usual but the proportion

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might be a little off because

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what's in some of the documentation is

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just so

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weird and strange and contradictory and

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confusing that it's hard to summarize

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some things and you just need to to hear

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them

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for yourself i i don't intend for this

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to be an audiobook or a compilation of

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primary sources

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more than it should be but this is just

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the way it's turning out and it's such a

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convoluted story and

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i'm not saying i regret going down the

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morris k jesup philadelphia experiment

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eventually montauk thing but

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sometimes i wonder if

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a three to four part

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saga that involves me reading 15 to 20

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books was the best thing for my um my

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personal well-being

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you can be the judge of how well we

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pulled this off here at the saucer life

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all right so i feel i should provide

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some kind of last time on the saucer

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life

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but it's not going to be super extensive

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so if you did not listen to our last i

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almost never say this but if you did not

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listen to our episode on morris k jessup

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last time

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hit pause

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go back and listen to that

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then start back up here but the gist of

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it is

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sciency guy astronomer guy morris k

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jessup wrote some ufo books back in the

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1950s one of them

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got

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the response of a man calling himself

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carl l allen or carlos allende

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carlos allende also did some

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annotations extensive annotations

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from people who seem to be aliens in a

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copy of one of his books the case for

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the ufo and sent this to the office of

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naval and office of naval research

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rather not office of naval intelligence

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the office of naval research talked to

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jessup about it and had some facsimile

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copies of the annotated book printed up

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by government contractor the vero

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corporation

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jessup commits suicide

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everything becomes very mysterious

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carlos allende drops off the map and

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here's where we're picking up the story

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with the question of

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carlos allende

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carl allen

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what the

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heck is going on here so that's

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where we are i compressed it quite a bit

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like i said listen to that morris k

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jessup episode if you want the full

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strength of what we're getting going

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into this if you don't want to do that

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that's fine

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but i take no responsibility for what

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you might or might not already know as

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we get into this material

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and one more caveat

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there are elements of this that i could

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go into far more detail on and i am

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just not going to because this is not an

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encyclopedic look at every aspect of

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everything about the philadelphia

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experiment this is or this has become in

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the course of working on it an

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exploration of the people who brought it

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to you

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so

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yes you are going to

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listen and if you have

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been looking at this extensively on your

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own time or in your own life you're

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going to say but what about this but

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what about that what about pages 39

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through 47 of this book

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yeah i probably read it i'm probably

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aware of it

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had to make choices you have to make

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choices on things like this unless you

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want them to be seven hours long and

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consume your entire life and some

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podcasts have time for that the saucer

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life does not the saucer life moves fast

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the saucer life is quick the saucer life

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is going to give you enough to get

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started to continue to learn on your own

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so here we go picking up the story in

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the late 1960s

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jessup had been gone for almost 10 years

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carlos allende was really nowhere to be

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found

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gray barker had published his book the

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strange case of morris k jesup and was

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talking about the letters that had been

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received by jessup from allende and the

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annotations in the vero edition and was

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getting ready to put together his own

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facsimile of the facsimile of the vero

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edition

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the letters themselves had been

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published not only by barker but earlier

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by riley crabb of the borderlands

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science research associates this stuff

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was out there floating around but it was

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hard to get a hold of it wasn't widely

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known in most of the ufo field

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despite what you may hear later

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so in

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1968 i want to say brad steiger who

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we're going to be hearing from a lot

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more in this saga especially next time

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published

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allende's letters um sort of expanding

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on a magazine article he'd written about

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the allende letters called new ufo

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breakthrough allende letters an

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exclusive report on the mysterious

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correspondence that triggered a special

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naval research study now

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we can sort of quibble with the accuracy

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and sort of

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outrageously

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good golly special naval research study

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nature of this but even in the late 60s

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steiger was a name he had readers this

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book got out to a lot of people and was

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probably i would say one of the things

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that popularized this whole story to a

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wider ufo audience that wasn't buying

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books from gray barker and

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let's be clear

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that is

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a lot of ufo people who aren't buying

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books from gray barker so this comes out

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in the late 60s and out of the woodwork

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a whole lot of people claiming to be

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allende write letters to brad steiger um

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basically saying things and and

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claiming to be

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part of the philadelphia experiment

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complex of events

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now the way this narrative goes oh i

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should say something why am i not

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sharing anything from

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brad steiger's book new ufo breakthrough

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allende letters etc etc

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because it is currently

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several hours away from me as i'm

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recording this in a u.s post office

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sorting facility in i think elk grove

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illinois i was checking it obsessively

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yesterday wondering if i would have it

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in my hands in time to record this

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episode and i mentioned something on

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twitter

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and uh a friend of the show john el

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tenny responded that it's being held up

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because a postal worker is is ner is

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annotating the margins which i i thought

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was the funniest thing i've seen on

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twitter in um in a long time so if

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there's anything interesting in this

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steiger book i'll do a little mini

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episode about the steiger book probably

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on our reader feedback thing next week

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when i actually have it in my hands so

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if you're wondering why i'm not sharing

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more from the steiger book

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that's why so anyway this is where

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the carlos allende narrative goes next

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carlos

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sake of argument

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goes to apro headquarters the aerial

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phenomenon research organization and i

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think that was in arizona at the time

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and he goes to uh jim and coral

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lawrenson's house

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and he hands them uh he tells them he's

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sick of all the publicity about the

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story he's sick of people every

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everybody was profiting from his story

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but him

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and this is 1969 he wants to get back at

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them all he gives jim laurenson a

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copy of the vero edition of the case for

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the ufo and

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a typed out confession which is

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published in an article in the

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apro bulletin in 1969 the july august

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edition and this is what

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the confession said

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all words phrases and sentences

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underlined on the following pages in

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brown ink are false the below page and

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the top part of the following were and

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are the craziest pack of lies i ever

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wrote my object to encourage onr

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research and discourage professor morris

246
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k jessop from going further with

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investigations possibly leading to

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actual research

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then i feared invisibility and force

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field research

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i don't now

252
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in fact from the article in the apro

253
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bulletin what we learn from

254
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ayande and his conversation with jim

255
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lawrenson of apro is that he wanted to

256
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do more than discourage jessop's

257
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research he wanted to quote scare the

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hell out of jessup

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so

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there we were 1969 we have a confession

261
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of the

262
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thing being a hoax but at the same time

263
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you have allende still kind of pushing

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the narrative that there is something to

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the

266
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let's put this in

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kind of sarcasm quotes science

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of what he was talking about in his

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letters to jessup and in the annotations

270
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to case for the ufo then as we get into

271
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the 1970s what occurs according to

272
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articles written by david halperin on

273
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his blog about the collection of

274
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correspondence between barker and

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allende in the great barker collection

276
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west virginia and documents at

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johnkeel.com which hosts a lot of john

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keel's correspondence which makes sense

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given the domain name what we see is

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that despite wanting to sort of declare

281
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:39,279
the hoax and drop out and and ruin

282
00:11:44,230 --> 00:11:40,959
things for people who are profiting from

283
00:11:47,350 --> 00:11:44,240
his work allende sort of goes into this

284
00:11:50,069 --> 00:11:47,360
correspondence overdrive that lasts into

285
00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:50,079
the 1980s in some cases and he

286
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:52,320
corresponds and writes letters long

287
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:53,279
letters

288
00:12:00,550 --> 00:11:57,519
to gray barker and

289
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:00,560
john keel and it's

290
00:12:04,069 --> 00:12:02,880
it's a lot to get into i was i was going

291
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:04,079
to go into some of these letters

292
00:12:09,750 --> 00:12:05,920
especially the ones with kiel

293
00:12:11,430 --> 00:12:09,760
but allende's writing style as you heard

294
00:12:12,710 --> 00:12:11,440
on the last episode

295
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,720
is

296
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:14,320
not

297
00:12:19,829 --> 00:12:17,519
pleasant to study or read it's it's

298
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:19,839
paranoid it's strange

299
00:12:23,110 --> 00:12:20,959
it's

300
00:12:24,629 --> 00:12:23,120
difficult the correspondence that is

301
00:12:27,670 --> 00:12:24,639
available between

302
00:12:30,550 --> 00:12:27,680
he and keel is basically

303
00:12:33,350 --> 00:12:30,560
kiel being skeptical that the allende

304
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:33,360
writing to him is the actual real carlos

305
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:34,959
allende and then

306
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:37,200
numerous letters from ayande trying to

307
00:12:41,350 --> 00:12:39,040
prove that he is

308
00:12:43,590 --> 00:12:41,360
the correspondence with

309
00:12:47,509 --> 00:12:43,600
with barker is

310
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:47,519
not in that way because he did you know

311
00:12:52,389 --> 00:12:50,160
visit with with barker on occasion and

312
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:52,399
recorded an audio tape

313
00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:55,920
with barker about his ideas during which

314
00:12:58,710 --> 00:12:56,800
time

315
00:13:01,389 --> 00:12:58,720
i learned from reading david halperin's

316
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:01,399
summary of these things barker and

317
00:13:05,509 --> 00:13:03,519
co-interviewer jim mosley were

318
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,519
outrageously drunk during the entire

319
00:13:11,030 --> 00:13:07,600
thing as far as i know there is not a

320
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:11,040
copy of this tape online for

321
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:13,839
easy access it would be nice if it was i

322
00:13:18,230 --> 00:13:16,160
think would be very interesting but if

323
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,240
you want to hear that tape i presume you

324
00:13:22,870 --> 00:13:21,200
have to go to west virginia to do so

325
00:13:25,590 --> 00:13:22,880
from halpern's account

326
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:25,600
what becomes clear is that allende would

327
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:27,519
write these long rambling letters to

328
00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:30,480
barker and barker would reply with very

329
00:13:35,509 --> 00:13:33,040
brief sort of dismissive

330
00:13:38,069 --> 00:13:35,519
letters but ayanday kept writing and he

331
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,079
would keep writing for a couple years

332
00:13:42,310 --> 00:13:40,320
after barker's death even probably

333
00:13:45,670 --> 00:13:42,320
wondering why he wasn't getting even

334
00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:45,680
those brief dismissive responses then in

335
00:13:50,470 --> 00:13:48,160
1979 a book came out called the

336
00:13:53,829 --> 00:13:50,480
philadelphia experiment project

337
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:53,839
invisibility by charles burlitz and

338
00:13:59,990 --> 00:13:57,600
william l moore now this is the book

339
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:00,000
that for the general public

340
00:14:03,509 --> 00:14:01,440
put the

341
00:14:05,750 --> 00:14:03,519
philadelphia experiment on the map as

342
00:14:07,829 --> 00:14:05,760
much as the philadelphia experiment has

343
00:14:09,350 --> 00:14:07,839
ever been on the map for the general

344
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:09,360
public sometimes i think those of us who

345
00:14:13,829 --> 00:14:11,519
are interested in these topics assume

346
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,839
there's wider knowledge of these things

347
00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:16,000
than there actually is if you were to go

348
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,040
up to

349
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:18,880
any random dozen people on the street

350
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:21,360
which i do not recommend and ask them to

351
00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:22,480
tell you

352
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:24,160
what they know about the philadelphia

353
00:14:27,670 --> 00:14:26,480
experiment you would get i think

354
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:27,680
probably

355
00:14:31,590 --> 00:14:29,279
eight to nine

356
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:31,600
blank looks

357
00:14:37,829 --> 00:14:33,760
one person who tells you about the

358
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:37,839
philadelphia experiment and two people

359
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:38,959
who

360
00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:41,920
probably hit you or something

361
00:14:45,990 --> 00:14:43,680
because they know the real secrets and

362
00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:46,000
are trying to shut you up so the

363
00:14:49,990 --> 00:14:48,160
philadelphia experiment book

364
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:50,000
is pretty interesting and we're not

365
00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:51,760
going to go through it

366
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:53,920
extensively because

367
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,560
to be honest a lot of it covers things

368
00:15:01,030 --> 00:14:58,560
that we covered last time you know of

369
00:15:02,069 --> 00:15:01,040
necessity there is a whole lot

370
00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:02,079
about

371
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:05,600
the jessup vero edition thing the most

372
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:07,600
interesting part of the book for me and

373
00:15:13,910 --> 00:15:10,079
hence the part that you will hear about

374
00:15:17,829 --> 00:15:13,920
because this is my show is the more

375
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,839
burlitz investigation into who carlos

376
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,440
allende is that's one thing that's

377
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:21,600
interesting and the other thing are some

378
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,000
things that they talk about and

379
00:15:31,509 --> 00:15:27,760
investigate that will become significant

380
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:31,519
in later iterations of the philadelphia

381
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:32,880
experiment

382
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:37,199
mythos and its various offshoots so

383
00:15:42,389 --> 00:15:39,279
looking at their investigation their

384
00:15:45,030 --> 00:15:42,399
their discussion of carlos allende let's

385
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:45,040
look first at moore and burlitz's

386
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,440
summary of what

387
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:50,399
they learned from allende from the

388
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:52,880
commentary on the jessup material it's a

389
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:55,279
nice little summary of really what we

390
00:15:58,790 --> 00:15:56,560
know so far

391
00:16:00,470 --> 00:15:58,800
allende himself claims to have observed

392
00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:00,480
at least portions of this experiment

393
00:16:04,790 --> 00:16:02,240
while at sea on board the liberty ship

394
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:04,800
ss andrew furiceth a matin line's ship

395
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:06,720
out of norfolk this was sometime in

396
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:09,680
october 1943. according to allende other

397
00:16:12,870 --> 00:16:11,120
men who were on the deck at the time and

398
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:12,880
witnessed the tests were chief mate

399
00:16:18,870 --> 00:16:16,720
mosley richard splicey price an 18 or 19

400
00:16:21,030 --> 00:16:18,880
year old sailor from roanoke virginia a

401
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:21,040
man named connolly from new england

402
00:16:27,189 --> 00:16:23,759
possibly boston

403
00:16:29,110 --> 00:16:27,199
so maureen burlitz probably mostly more

404
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,120
burlitz was there to sort of polish

405
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:31,920
moore's research in writing and add his

406
00:16:35,910 --> 00:16:34,480
significant name and credibility to it i

407
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:35,920
believe that's the impression i've

408
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:38,000
gotten if i'm wrong somebody set me

409
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:39,199
straight

410
00:16:42,550 --> 00:16:40,720
let's just say more because he's the one

411
00:16:44,150 --> 00:16:42,560
who does a lot of the footwork decides

412
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:44,160
that the best thing to do would be to

413
00:16:47,990 --> 00:16:46,399
track down carlos allende and actually

414
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,000
talk to him and he's able to do this

415
00:16:53,030 --> 00:16:50,880
eventually um through talking to jim

416
00:16:54,790 --> 00:16:53,040
lawrenson of apro and and other people

417
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:54,800
who've had correspondence and trying to

418
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:56,639
figure out where

419
00:17:01,030 --> 00:16:59,360
carlos is but even after finding him and

420
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,040
talking to him

421
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:03,120
more more says this he says although

422
00:17:06,710 --> 00:17:04,799
maintaining contact with the man who

423
00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:06,720
calls himself carlos allende has

424
00:17:10,870 --> 00:17:08,880
produced voluminous correspondence

425
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:10,880
several lengthy telephone conversations

426
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:12,959
and a couple of face-to-face meetings it

427
00:17:16,789 --> 00:17:15,199
is still virtually impossible to say

428
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:16,799
very much about him

429
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:19,280
with any degree of certainty he goes on

430
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:22,880
to talk about carlos in this way

431
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:25,199
ayanda is about six feet tall balding

432
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:27,199
spare a frame and usually somewhat

433
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:29,520
shabbily dressed his eyes often show

434
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:31,360
suspicion but he occasionally smiles

435
00:17:34,950 --> 00:17:33,360
gently he is given to rambling

436
00:17:36,549 --> 00:17:34,960
monologues about his thoughts on many

437
00:17:38,549 --> 00:17:36,559
topics besides the philadelphia

438
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:38,559
experiment when he does talk about the

439
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,799
philadelphia experiment he often appears

440
00:17:44,549 --> 00:17:42,640
to be keeping something back or avoiding

441
00:17:46,470 --> 00:17:44,559
a direct answer when pressed for

442
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:46,480
information he will change the subject

443
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:48,160
he will make appointments that not show

444
00:17:57,990 --> 00:17:55,750
what moore is able to get from allende

445
00:18:00,630 --> 00:17:58,000
is a summary of his life and his

446
00:18:02,470 --> 00:18:00,640
background that hopefully everybody

447
00:18:04,549 --> 00:18:02,480
thinks will

448
00:18:05,510 --> 00:18:04,559
kind of explain some of the strange

449
00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,520
things

450
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:07,600
in his in his writings and his

451
00:18:10,870 --> 00:18:09,919
annotations in his letters for example

452
00:18:15,190 --> 00:18:10,880
the

453
00:18:17,990 --> 00:18:15,200
a gypsy where does that come from well

454
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:18,000
carlos explains to moore his family

455
00:18:21,510 --> 00:18:19,600
background

456
00:18:23,430 --> 00:18:21,520
the first of these based on information

457
00:18:25,350 --> 00:18:23,440
mostly from carlos allende himself has

458
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:25,360
it that he was born carl allen the

459
00:18:30,710 --> 00:18:27,039
youngest of three children of an irish

460
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:30,720
father and a gypsy mother on may 31 1925

461
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:32,080
on a farm outside of a small

462
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:35,120
pennsylvania town not new kensington of

463
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,960
his early life not much is known saved

464
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:38,720
that the family lived on a small farm

465
00:18:42,390 --> 00:18:40,720
and that young carlos or carl quit

466
00:18:44,070 --> 00:18:42,400
school in his ninth year

467
00:18:45,909 --> 00:18:44,080
we are told he was a moody and rather

468
00:18:47,060 --> 00:18:45,919
restless youngster who liked to lose

469
00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:47,070
himself in books

470
00:18:54,789 --> 00:18:52,630
new kensington pennsylvania is a

471
00:18:57,909 --> 00:18:54,799
reference to a return address that had

472
00:18:59,110 --> 00:18:57,919
been used on some letters from

473
00:19:04,150 --> 00:18:59,120
carl

474
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,160
of farmwork in pennsylvania and joined

475
00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:06,000
the marine corps he served 10 months he

476
00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:08,640
was discharged in 1943

477
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:11,520
because of medical disability

478
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:13,919
he visited home in pennsylvania then

479
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:15,760
goes to philadelphia and enlisted in the

480
00:19:21,430 --> 00:19:18,880
merchant marine in july of 1943. a few

481
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:21,440
days later he did his training and he

482
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:24,559
was on a number of ships initially the

483
00:19:29,270 --> 00:19:27,360
ss andrew fereseth the liberty ship from

484
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:29,280
which he supposedly saw this

485
00:19:33,909 --> 00:19:32,799
philadelphia experiment take place

486
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:33,919
he was on

487
00:19:41,110 --> 00:19:36,720
he said 27 different ships

488
00:19:42,630 --> 00:19:41,120
until october 1952 when a union dispute

489
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:42,640
seemed to be denying him further

490
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:46,000
assignments he leaves searches for

491
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:48,640
his fortune elsewhere he bounces around

492
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:50,960
from job to job doing a lot of oil well

493
00:19:56,070 --> 00:19:53,760
work in the 1950s in texas which matches

494
00:19:57,990 --> 00:19:56,080
up more discovered with the return

495
00:20:00,870 --> 00:19:58,000
addresses he used at that time when he

496
00:20:03,510 --> 00:20:00,880
was mailing letters to jessup and that

497
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:03,520
copy the annotated copy of the case for

498
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:06,960
the ufo to the office of naval research

499
00:20:11,830 --> 00:20:09,440
but once things get rolling with that he

500
00:20:13,510 --> 00:20:11,840
begins to get a little nervous according

501
00:20:15,270 --> 00:20:13,520
to moore

502
00:20:17,029 --> 00:20:15,280
a drifter he nonetheless apparently

503
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:17,039
became worried when the navy and others

504
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,720
began taking an interest in him

505
00:20:21,990 --> 00:20:20,559
following his contacts with dr jessup

506
00:20:24,149 --> 00:20:22,000
and he went into hiding for a number of

507
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,159
years he finally ended up in the los

508
00:20:27,990 --> 00:20:26,559
altos region of south central mexico and

509
00:20:29,190 --> 00:20:28,000
eventually he came to consider the

510
00:20:30,710 --> 00:20:29,200
region as home

511
00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:30,720
he had been to the area before during

512
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,400
the course of his wanderings and claims

513
00:20:36,870 --> 00:20:34,400
that in fact it was the gypsies of this

514
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:36,880
region who mexicanized carl allen into

515
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:39,120
carlos miguel allende at the time of

516
00:20:44,630 --> 00:20:41,090
this writing he is still living there

517
00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:46,789
so that's the origin of the carl allen

518
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:49,760
carlos allende name apparently

519
00:20:55,190 --> 00:20:52,799
except maybe it isn't more goes on for a

520
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:55,200
few pages okay more in burlitz i should

521
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:57,760
say go on for a few pages about an

522
00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:00,320
allende family they discovered living in

523
00:21:06,789 --> 00:21:03,440
pennsylvania that might with a few name

524
00:21:09,830 --> 00:21:06,799
changes and some other shenanigans here

525
00:21:12,230 --> 00:21:09,840
and there match up with the carlos

526
00:21:14,549 --> 00:21:12,240
allende carl allen story as we're going

527
00:21:16,310 --> 00:21:14,559
to see that's not the case and since

528
00:21:17,590 --> 00:21:16,320
we're going to see it's not the case i'm

529
00:21:19,669 --> 00:21:17,600
just going to say if you read the

530
00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:19,679
philadelphia experiment some of the

531
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:21,360
stuff moore says is contradicted by

532
00:21:25,270 --> 00:21:23,440
people with more knowledge a few years

533
00:21:26,710 --> 00:21:25,280
later um

534
00:21:29,510 --> 00:21:26,720
like i said you got to make choices

535
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:29,520
about what to talk about and what not to

536
00:21:32,310 --> 00:21:31,120
talk about

537
00:21:34,789 --> 00:21:32,320
so

538
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,799
regardless of where he was born

539
00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:36,400
where he was from

540
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:37,760
is he really

541
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:40,400
a gypsy is he not the real question

542
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:43,200
according to moore is whether or not

543
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,120
allende is in any position to know

544
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,760
anything about this actual philadelphia

545
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:49,120
experiment

546
00:21:52,950 --> 00:21:50,799
the truth is that allende was not a

547
00:21:54,710 --> 00:21:52,960
scientist nor even a trained observer

548
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:54,720
but merely a deckhand who happened to be

549
00:21:58,870 --> 00:21:57,039
in the right or wrong placed the proper

550
00:22:01,669 --> 00:21:58,880
time to view a site which he was and

551
00:22:03,669 --> 00:22:01,679
still is totally at a loss to explain

552
00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:03,679
did he see a ship vanish according to

553
00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:06,480
his own testimony he did how was it done

554
00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:08,240
he doesn't know exactly but it has to do

555
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:10,480
with force fields of some sort there is

556
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:12,480
plenty of static electricity associated

557
00:22:18,070 --> 00:22:14,720
with it he said could he name the ship

558
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:18,080
yes he could it was the dec 173

559
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:20,480
did he see it vanish more than once no

560
00:22:25,270 --> 00:22:23,520
he didn't but it did he adds knowingly

561
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:25,280
where did he obtain his information on

562
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:27,679
einstein russell and admiral bennett

563
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:30,240
from friends in high places who shall go

564
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:36,310
so this is where we get

565
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:40,400
the designation of the ship being de17

566
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:43,200
which corresponds to the uss eldridge

567
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:44,640
which is always the ship that's

568
00:22:49,909 --> 00:22:47,520
associated with the philadelphia

569
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:49,919
experiment that designation doesn't show

570
00:22:56,149 --> 00:22:52,720
up until here with these conversations

571
00:22:57,590 --> 00:22:56,159
between moore and allende why not why

572
00:23:00,470 --> 00:22:57,600
didn't he mention the name of the ship

573
00:23:02,870 --> 00:23:00,480
that disappeared and appeared in norfolk

574
00:23:06,149 --> 00:23:02,880
virginia why doesn't he talk about that

575
00:23:09,669 --> 00:23:06,159
that's a good question and it's one that

576
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:09,679
more doesn't really follow up on we also

577
00:23:15,510 --> 00:23:12,320
in the more burlitz book get

578
00:23:18,070 --> 00:23:15,520
a description of the experiment himself

579
00:23:20,789 --> 00:23:18,080
from allende and it appears from this

580
00:23:23,750 --> 00:23:20,799
description he was closer to the action

581
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:23,760
than he kind of might have intimated

582
00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:24,880
earlier

583
00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:26,480
so you want to know about einstein's

584
00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,480
great experiment eh do you know i

585
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:30,159
actually shoved my hand up to the elbow

586
00:23:33,470 --> 00:23:31,679
into this unique force field as that

587
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:33,480
field glowed surging powerfully in a

588
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:35,760
counterclockwise direction around the

589
00:23:41,510 --> 00:23:39,760
little experimental navy ship the de173

590
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:41,520
i felt the push of that force field

591
00:23:45,510 --> 00:23:43,520
against the solidness of my arm and hand

592
00:23:47,110 --> 00:23:45,520
outstretched into its humming pushing

593
00:23:48,789 --> 00:23:47,120
propelling flow

594
00:23:50,870 --> 00:23:48,799
i watched the air all around the ship

595
00:23:53,430 --> 00:23:50,880
turned slightly ever so slightly darker

596
00:23:55,510 --> 00:23:53,440
than all the other air i saw after a few

597
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:55,520
minutes a foggy green mist arise like a

598
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,720
thin cloud

599
00:24:00,950 --> 00:23:58,240
i think this must have been a mist of

600
00:24:03,590 --> 00:24:00,960
atomic particles i watched as thereafter

601
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:03,600
the de173 became rapidly invisible to

602
00:24:07,590 --> 00:24:05,840
human eyes and yet the precise shape of

603
00:24:09,830 --> 00:24:07,600
the keel and underhall of that ship

604
00:24:12,230 --> 00:24:09,840
remained impressed into the ocean water

605
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:12,240
as it and my own ship sped alongside

606
00:24:15,269 --> 00:24:14,240
somewhat side by side and close to

607
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:15,279
inboard

608
00:24:20,549 --> 00:24:18,960
yes i can tell it but then who cares in

609
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:20,559
trying to describe the sounds that the

610
00:24:23,909 --> 00:24:22,240
force field made as it circled around

611
00:24:25,750 --> 00:24:23,919
the de173

612
00:24:27,990 --> 00:24:25,760
it began as a humming sound quickly

613
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:28,000
built up to a humming whispering sound

614
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:29,600
and then increased to a strongly

615
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,320
sizzling buzz like a rushing torrent the

616
00:24:36,470 --> 00:24:34,159
field had a sheet of pure electricity

617
00:24:37,990 --> 00:24:36,480
around it as it flowed this flow was

618
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:38,000
strong enough to almost knock me

619
00:24:41,830 --> 00:24:39,919
completely off balance and had my entire

620
00:24:43,830 --> 00:24:41,840
body been within that field the flow

621
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:43,840
would of a most absolute certainty have

622
00:24:48,310 --> 00:24:46,400
knocked me flat on my own ship's deck as

623
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:48,320
it was my entire body was not within

624
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:50,000
that force field when it reached maximum

625
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:52,960
strength density repeat density and so i

626
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:54,960
was not knocked down but my arm and hand

627
00:24:58,149 --> 00:24:56,640
was only pushed backward with the

628
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:58,159
field's flow

629
00:25:01,269 --> 00:24:59,919
why was i not electrocuted the instant

630
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:01,279
my bare hand touched that sheet of

631
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,279
electricity surrounding the flow

632
00:25:06,950 --> 00:25:04,799
it must have been because i was wearing

633
00:25:09,750 --> 00:25:06,960
high hip rubber sailors boots and a

634
00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:09,760
southwester coat

635
00:25:13,830 --> 00:25:11,760
elemental atomic forces of nature

636
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:13,840
resistible if you're wearing galoshes

637
00:25:19,029 --> 00:25:16,799
and a decent coat from there

638
00:25:21,029 --> 00:25:19,039
maureen burlitz delve back into the

639
00:25:23,669 --> 00:25:21,039
jessup suicide from back in the late

640
00:25:25,990 --> 00:25:23,679
1950s and moore says that he has a

641
00:25:29,750 --> 00:25:26,000
breakthrough in this account in the form

642
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:29,760
of a witness a man named dr j manson

643
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,320
valentine no geographer zoologist

644
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:34,720
archaeologist and longtime student of

645
00:25:39,830 --> 00:25:36,720
the bermuda triangle so this is probably

646
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:39,840
a connection through charles burlitz

647
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:40,960
and

648
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:42,559
valentine

649
00:25:46,710 --> 00:25:43,679
gives

650
00:25:49,669 --> 00:25:46,720
more and burlets the rundown of what

651
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:49,679
really might have happened to

652
00:25:55,269 --> 00:25:52,880
not a doctor mk jesup

653
00:25:57,110 --> 00:25:55,279
why did jessup kill himself

654
00:25:58,230 --> 00:25:57,120
valentine's answer was unexpected and

655
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:58,240
startling

656
00:26:01,990 --> 00:26:00,559
if he committed suicide said valentine

657
00:26:04,149 --> 00:26:02,000
it was probably due to extreme

658
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:04,159
depression he had been approached by the

659
00:26:07,269 --> 00:26:05,679
navy to continue working on the

660
00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:07,279
philadelphia experiment or similar

661
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:09,520
projects but had declined he was worried

662
00:26:13,510 --> 00:26:11,440
about its dangerous ramifications

663
00:26:15,590 --> 00:26:13,520
perhaps he could have been saved he was

664
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:15,600
still alive when he was found perhaps he

665
00:26:18,630 --> 00:26:17,200
was allowed to die

666
00:26:19,750 --> 00:26:18,640
valentine stated that jessup had

667
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,760
researched the question of the

668
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,200
philadelphia experiment pretty

669
00:26:25,350 --> 00:26:23,760
thoroughly you must remember he observed

670
00:26:29,830 --> 00:26:25,360
that he was not a crank writer but a

671
00:26:36,470 --> 00:26:31,110
no he wasn't

672
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,480
and this is something that that we know

673
00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:38,880
this is something that if moore and

674
00:26:41,669 --> 00:26:40,400
berlitz had talked to gray barker they

675
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:41,679
would have seen the letter sent from the

676
00:26:45,669 --> 00:26:43,039
university of michigan that we talked

677
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:45,679
about last time that that verified and

678
00:26:49,830 --> 00:26:47,120
sort of clarified what jessup's

679
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:49,840
credentials were he was not

680
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:52,480
a distinguished and admired

681
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:54,960
scientist he was a guy who wrote some

682
00:26:59,110 --> 00:26:57,919
ufo books after having some astronomical

683
00:27:00,630 --> 00:26:59,120
training

684
00:27:02,549 --> 00:27:00,640
that's what he was

685
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:02,559
and this

686
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:05,279
sort of thing just

687
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:08,080
persists and what evidence is there that

688
00:27:12,549 --> 00:27:10,320
the navy was wanting jessup to work on

689
00:27:15,669 --> 00:27:12,559
the philadelphia experiment what what

690
00:27:18,710 --> 00:27:15,679
evidence is that a guy said so a guy who

691
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:18,720
who knew jessup a guy who knew he was

692
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:20,399
talking to two people who were writing a

693
00:27:26,149 --> 00:27:23,279
book about the philadelphia experiment

694
00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:26,159
you get the impression from allende

695
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:27,679
from valentine here you get the

696
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:29,760
impression from a lot of these folks

697
00:27:33,909 --> 00:27:32,159
that when you start to look into this

698
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:33,919
topic and let's face it almost every

699
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,960
other topic in this field you run into a

700
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,880
lot of people who want to tell a lot of

701
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:41,120
unsubstantiated stories and then you

702
00:27:44,630 --> 00:27:42,240
have other people who put these

703
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:44,640
unsubstantiated stories into a book and

704
00:27:47,669 --> 00:27:45,919
as we're going to see you have people

705
00:27:48,870 --> 00:27:47,679
who take these unsubstantiated stories

706
00:27:50,870 --> 00:27:48,880
that they read in books and assume

707
00:27:52,789 --> 00:27:50,880
that's because it's in a book it must be

708
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:52,799
a real story and a real thing that

709
00:27:58,470 --> 00:27:55,440
happened that valentine thing irritated

710
00:27:59,830 --> 00:27:58,480
me as you can probably tell this isn't

711
00:28:02,630 --> 00:27:59,840
snark this is

712
00:28:04,549 --> 00:28:02,640
this is pure irritation more and burlets

713
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:04,559
continue their investigation and find

714
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:06,880
that the office of naval research has

715
00:28:12,230 --> 00:28:09,120
issued a statement saying that

716
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:12,240
nothing of this is real the vero edition

717
00:28:16,149 --> 00:28:14,320
stuff was was basically the personal

718
00:28:18,070 --> 00:28:16,159
interest of two officers and not an

719
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:18,080
official onr

720
00:28:23,510 --> 00:28:20,720
operation or request they have never

721
00:28:25,190 --> 00:28:23,520
undertaken any experiments in

722
00:28:27,029 --> 00:28:25,200
invisibility

723
00:28:29,909 --> 00:28:27,039
maybe it's being confused with

724
00:28:32,310 --> 00:28:29,919
degaussing experiments to demagnetize

725
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:32,320
ships to make them in quotes invisible

726
00:28:36,950 --> 00:28:34,720
to magnetic minds but

727
00:28:40,230 --> 00:28:36,960
real invisibility is sort of the realm

728
00:28:41,269 --> 00:28:40,240
of science fiction they say

729
00:28:42,389 --> 00:28:41,279
more

730
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:42,399
goes on

731
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:44,559
continues as investigations finds that

732
00:28:49,909 --> 00:28:47,120
the log books of the phiroseth and the

733
00:28:54,549 --> 00:28:49,919
eldridge are unavailable the first has

734
00:28:57,190 --> 00:28:54,559
been destroyed by executive um executive

735
00:29:00,230 --> 00:28:57,200
order uh the eldridge's is

736
00:29:02,389 --> 00:29:00,240
missing for the dates that might have

737
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,399
encompassed the philadelphia experiment

738
00:29:07,669 --> 00:29:04,720
from october or sorry from august to

739
00:29:09,990 --> 00:29:07,679
december of 1943 which is

740
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:10,000
suspicious but

741
00:29:13,669 --> 00:29:11,120
just because there might have been

742
00:29:16,789 --> 00:29:13,679
something going on with a ship that

743
00:29:19,269 --> 00:29:16,799
made the navy feel a need to

744
00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:19,279
make the logs unavailable

745
00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:21,760
that's not evidence of

746
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,240
an invisibility experiment with force

747
00:29:29,750 --> 00:29:27,360
fields and einstein being involved and

748
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:29,760
all of this kind of thing

749
00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:33,039
the philadelphia experiment book goes on

750
00:29:39,510 --> 00:29:36,000
for a while and while it's a sort of

751
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:39,520
breezy readable book it does get kind of

752
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,279
bogged down in details here and there so

753
00:29:46,710 --> 00:29:45,120
there are some other things in the book

754
00:29:49,110 --> 00:29:46,720
that i just want to mention because i

755
00:29:50,389 --> 00:29:49,120
think they're kind of interesting one of

756
00:29:52,870 --> 00:29:50,399
the interesting things that's going to

757
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:52,880
lead into some other topics later on

758
00:29:57,190 --> 00:29:54,960
down the road is that moore becomes

759
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:57,200
acquainted with some scientists who were

760
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:58,880
the models for scientists in a

761
00:30:04,149 --> 00:30:01,279
fictionalized version of some of these

762
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:04,159
ideas a novel called thin air

763
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:05,919
that's another book that i'm waiting on

764
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,600
the mail for so i might do something

765
00:30:11,110 --> 00:30:09,200
with that later on but he becomes

766
00:30:12,950 --> 00:30:11,120
acquainted with some people who tell him

767
00:30:16,149 --> 00:30:12,960
about some scientists who were working

768
00:30:18,549 --> 00:30:16,159
on some things that were not entirely

769
00:30:21,029 --> 00:30:18,559
dissimilar to some of the things that

770
00:30:23,750 --> 00:30:21,039
allende was talking about one of these

771
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:23,760
scientists was named john von neumann

772
00:30:28,310 --> 00:30:26,399
who i believe was from hungary

773
00:30:31,830 --> 00:30:28,320
originally comes to the united states is

774
00:30:33,110 --> 00:30:31,840
an early pioneer in a lot of things

775
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:33,120
including

776
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:35,440
computers and things like that the name

777
00:30:41,669 --> 00:30:39,600
von neumann will return later on and the

778
00:30:45,269 --> 00:30:41,679
pseudonym of the scientist he is talking

779
00:30:46,950 --> 00:30:45,279
to about dr von neumann and things is a

780
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:46,960
dr reinhart

781
00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:48,159
and

782
00:30:53,990 --> 00:30:50,720
on our next installment of the show

783
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,000
where we hopefully wrap up this story

784
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:56,799
reinhardt and von neumann will make

785
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,000
appearances

786
00:31:01,350 --> 00:30:59,840
one last thing about the philadelphia

787
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:01,360
experiment near the end

788
00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:03,519
moore and burlitz connect what's going

789
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,840
on in the philadelphia experiment to ufo

790
00:31:09,190 --> 00:31:07,679
sightings and

791
00:31:11,110 --> 00:31:09,200
ufo

792
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:11,120
conspiracies and what might be covered

793
00:31:14,389 --> 00:31:12,960
up about ufos and how

794
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:14,399
what was done

795
00:31:19,669 --> 00:31:17,279
in philadelphia might have attracted

796
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:19,679
alien attention and to bolster this

797
00:31:24,310 --> 00:31:22,559
discussion they bring in an expert

798
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:24,320
professor stan friedman a nuclear

799
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:26,320
physicist of hayward california has

800
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,080
speculated that the reason the alien

801
00:31:31,669 --> 00:31:29,679
intelligences may have been attracted to

802
00:31:33,350 --> 00:31:31,679
the philadelphia experiment might be

803
00:31:35,350 --> 00:31:33,360
because of large concentrations of

804
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:35,360
electromagnetic oversplash produced by

805
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:36,960
the experiment itself

806
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,559
professor friedman who has personally

807
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:40,399
investigated a number of other cases in

808
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:42,960
which ufos had reportedly appeared in an

809
00:31:46,389 --> 00:31:45,200
uninvited response to electromagnetic

810
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,399
experimentation

811
00:31:50,870 --> 00:31:48,480
theorizes that if aliens are observing

812
00:31:53,269 --> 00:31:50,880
our world they would likely to have a

813
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:53,279
functional electromagnetic map and when

814
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:55,200
bright spots or points appeared not

815
00:32:02,470 --> 00:31:56,880
accounted for on their grid they would

816
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:04,230
and honestly that's all i've got to say

817
00:32:09,830 --> 00:32:07,440
about the moore and burlitz book it's

818
00:32:11,230 --> 00:32:09,840
it's a good overview of the story up

819
00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:11,240
until

820
00:32:15,509 --> 00:32:13,200
1979.

821
00:32:16,310 --> 00:32:15,519
there are things that happen after 1979

822
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:16,320
that

823
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:19,519
cast doubt on some of what they were

824
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:22,000
able to come up with and at the same

825
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:23,039
time

826
00:32:26,870 --> 00:32:25,200
the story will continue

827
00:32:34,310 --> 00:32:26,880
to expand and that's something we're

828
00:32:37,110 --> 00:32:35,750
we'll be back in a week fielding your

829
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:37,120
questions and comments about this

830
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:38,480
episode so get those to us in the

831
00:32:41,509 --> 00:32:39,600
comments under this episode on the

832
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:41,519
website on social media through email

833
00:32:46,149 --> 00:32:43,279
whatever you have

834
00:32:50,070 --> 00:32:46,159
on the next episode oh and we'll be

835
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,080
um taking a look briefly at the um

836
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:52,559
the brad steiger book about the allende

837
00:32:57,509 --> 00:32:55,519
letters if the post office gets it to me

838
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:57,519
on the next regular episode

839
00:33:01,590 --> 00:32:59,760
we've got a guy named al a guy named

840
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:01,600
preston i

841
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:04,720
think there is a guy named peter

842
00:33:08,149 --> 00:33:06,320
somewhere in there

843
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:08,159
maybe talking about a guy named stuart

844
00:33:11,430 --> 00:33:09,919
and we're going to be talking about a

845
00:33:14,870 --> 00:33:11,440
place called

846
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:14,880
montauk over on the chiso media patreon

847
00:33:17,669 --> 00:33:16,480
page we've got some

848
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:17,679
fun stuff

849
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:23,200
april there's going to be

850
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:24,559
a

851
00:33:37,029 --> 00:33:34,799
know which one is which yet

852
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:37,039
so that will uh that will be fun

853
00:33:42,549 --> 00:33:39,519
people really seem to enjoy the bonus

854
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:42,559
episode we had last month about the the

855
00:33:48,470 --> 00:33:45,519
art bell episode with the john lear test

856
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:48,480
particularly poignant now that john lear

857
00:33:53,909 --> 00:33:52,399
is no longer with us um there is content

858
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:53,919
uh there's gonna be something special

859
00:33:58,310 --> 00:33:56,320
i'm doing in april that i haven't done

860
00:34:01,430 --> 00:33:58,320
before it's gonna be a little experiment

861
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:01,440
in watching something very very strange

862
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,559
that a a listener put me in the loop on

863
00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:06,480
um there's stuff

864
00:34:10,550 --> 00:34:08,560
relating to our sister program great

865
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,560
lakes lore a lot of stuff up on the

866
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,399
patreon thank you so much for those

867
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:14,720
who've supported us so far you can

868
00:34:18,149 --> 00:34:16,320
always check out past episodes of the

869
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:18,159
show in your your podcast app or at

870
00:34:21,190 --> 00:34:19,760
saucerlife.com

871
00:34:23,030 --> 00:34:21,200
we're on twitter and instagram

872
00:34:26,230 --> 00:34:23,040
saucerlife and you can email us at

873
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:26,240
thesaucerlife gmail.com you can contact

874
00:34:32,349 --> 00:34:30,159
us by post at shizomedia po box 68 grand

875
00:34:40,950 --> 00:34:32,359
blank michigan

876
00:34:44,869 --> 00:34:42,310
so the next thing that happens in the

877
00:34:48,310 --> 00:34:44,879
saga of carlos allende is an article in

878
00:34:53,030 --> 00:34:48,320
the october 1980 issue of fate magazine

879
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:53,040
by robert gorman and he has very kindly

880
00:34:56,629 --> 00:34:54,240
placed this

881
00:34:59,109 --> 00:34:56,639
letter or this article that he wrote on

882
00:35:03,430 --> 00:34:59,119
a website for everybody to enjoy without

883
00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:03,440
tracking down the october 1980 issue of

884
00:35:08,870 --> 00:35:06,960
fate magazine he goes through the

885
00:35:11,990 --> 00:35:08,880
saga the story i keep saying saga the

886
00:35:15,270 --> 00:35:12,000
story of jessup and allende and the

887
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,280
letters and the annotated edition of

888
00:35:22,069 --> 00:35:18,160
case for the oh case for the onr case

889
00:35:25,190 --> 00:35:22,079
for the ufo that was sent to the onr and

890
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:25,200
jessup's 1959 suicide

891
00:35:29,430 --> 00:35:26,240
and

892
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:29,440
then gorman looks at this notion of the

893
00:35:33,910 --> 00:35:32,560
return address on the envelope

894
00:35:36,069 --> 00:35:33,920
of the

895
00:35:40,230 --> 00:35:36,079
book that was sent to

896
00:35:41,510 --> 00:35:40,240
the onr and one of the onr people acting

897
00:35:44,310 --> 00:35:41,520
on their own

898
00:35:48,069 --> 00:35:44,320
tried to go to pennsylvania to find the

899
00:35:50,790 --> 00:35:48,079
rd number one box 223 address in newt

900
00:35:52,630 --> 00:35:50,800
kensington pennsylvania

901
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:52,640
what gorman tells us and this is one of

902
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:54,880
those coincidences that is absolutely

903
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,400
wonderful and

904
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:58,400
without it we wouldn't know nearly as

905
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:59,599
much as what we know

906
00:36:03,349 --> 00:36:01,200
what gorman reveals is that new

907
00:36:06,870 --> 00:36:03,359
kensington pennsylvania site of the

908
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:06,880
vacant farmhouse that was um supposedly

909
00:36:12,150 --> 00:36:08,880
where this thing was sent from is his

910
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:12,160
hometown so in 1968 he decides to look

911
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:15,280
into the matter he finds allende's new

912
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:18,240
address in new mexico from a

913
00:36:22,710 --> 00:36:20,560
family friend but didn't get around to

914
00:36:24,390 --> 00:36:22,720
doing anything about it because the ufo

915
00:36:27,829 --> 00:36:24,400
field sort of blew up with the condon

916
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:27,839
report and then allende did his

917
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:30,000
confession to apro and he kind of lost

918
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:32,800
interest but then the philadelphia

919
00:36:38,069 --> 00:36:35,200
experiment book comes out and gorman

920
00:36:40,470 --> 00:36:38,079
gets contacted from somebody who wants

921
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,480
him to look into it so gorman and his

922
00:36:44,470 --> 00:36:42,320
family are back in new kensington

923
00:36:45,589 --> 00:36:44,480
visiting family and his daughter goes

924
00:36:47,510 --> 00:36:45,599
down to

925
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:47,520
visit a guy named harold nice little guy

926
00:36:52,390 --> 00:36:49,520
named harold and his wife

927
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:52,400
she's playing with their cats and stuff

928
00:36:57,829 --> 00:36:54,320
gorman has known harold for years he's

929
00:37:00,550 --> 00:36:57,839
in his 70s and they start talking and

930
00:37:02,470 --> 00:37:00,560
gorman mentions to harold that he's

931
00:37:05,030 --> 00:37:02,480
found he's looking at the story of this

932
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:05,040
guy allende and he's found this guy's

933
00:37:09,510 --> 00:37:06,560
brothers and he's really on the right

934
00:37:11,109 --> 00:37:09,520
track and then harold

935
00:37:14,310 --> 00:37:11,119
says oh yeah

936
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:14,320
i'm carl's father harold allen is carl

937
00:37:19,510 --> 00:37:16,640
allen's father

938
00:37:22,470 --> 00:37:19,520
it's one of these amazing things right

939
00:37:25,349 --> 00:37:22,480
so gorman you know runs into carlos

940
00:37:29,430 --> 00:37:25,359
allende carl allen's father who gives

941
00:37:32,470 --> 00:37:29,440
him a bunch of envelopes and books and

942
00:37:36,069 --> 00:37:32,480
papers says carl sends us this stuff

943
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:36,079
every so often if you can use any of it

944
00:37:41,109 --> 00:37:38,640
including one of the things in there is

945
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:41,119
a copy of the vero edition autographed

946
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:43,599
love your son carl m allen and then in

947
00:37:48,550 --> 00:37:46,960
parentheses carlos allende and there's a

948
00:37:51,670 --> 00:37:48,560
letter inside it

949
00:37:53,430 --> 00:37:51,680
says

950
00:37:56,470 --> 00:37:53,440
that basically he

951
00:37:58,950 --> 00:37:56,480
wrote the book alongside morris k jessup

952
00:38:01,750 --> 00:37:58,960
and this is the copy he got for being a

953
00:38:03,829 --> 00:38:01,760
co-author which is

954
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,839
not anything like what he had said

955
00:38:07,270 --> 00:38:05,599
before and isn't anything that's

956
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,280
actually

957
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:09,680
true in a strict sense

958
00:38:14,310 --> 00:38:11,760
talking to members of the family looking

959
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:14,320
at documentation gorman is able to come

960
00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:15,359
up with

961
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:17,680
who carlos allende

962
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:20,560
really was his actual background gorman

963
00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:21,839
says don't look at any of the

964
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:23,520
sensational books for the answer you'll

965
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:25,440
never find it there because carlos loves

966
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:27,200
to play games with those foolish enough

967
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:28,880
to play audience

968
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:30,880
the prosaic truth as his family revealed

969
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:34,000
it to me is as follows

970
00:38:39,510 --> 00:38:36,240
so he was born carl meredith allen on

971
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:39,520
may 31 1925 in a house in springdale

972
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:41,520
pennsylvania he's the oldest of five

973
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:43,599
children his father was of english

974
00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:45,599
descent his mother was part french

975
00:38:51,349 --> 00:38:48,240
neither parent has any gypsy blood

976
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:51,359
regardless of what carl claimed

977
00:38:56,470 --> 00:38:53,920
he was brilliant in school but as his

978
00:38:58,069 --> 00:38:56,480
brother randolph explained he never

979
00:38:59,829 --> 00:38:58,079
really used it never worked anywhere

980
00:39:02,230 --> 00:38:59,839
long enough to collect severance pay

981
00:39:04,470 --> 00:39:02,240
he's a drifter he reads continually but

982
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:04,480
the information gets all twisted

983
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:06,560
somehow he was really good

984
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:09,440
it seems at picking up information from

985
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:11,280
school without doing any of the actual

986
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:12,079
work

987
00:39:15,910 --> 00:39:14,400
he just absorbed information like a

988
00:39:19,030 --> 00:39:15,920
sponge

989
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,040
spoke many languages fluently some kind

990
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:21,599
of savant almost just

991
00:39:25,670 --> 00:39:24,400
absorbing information but not doing

992
00:39:26,950 --> 00:39:25,680
anything

993
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:26,960
practical

994
00:39:33,270 --> 00:39:30,079
with it he was a master leg puller one

995
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:33,280
brother described one time in 1956 he

996
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:36,079
faked a heart attack so well

997
00:39:42,230 --> 00:39:39,200
that the doctors ran three a key ekgs

998
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:42,240
just to make sure he wasn't having a

999
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:45,440
real heart attack his brother discovered

1000
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:48,000
all kinds of medical textbooks with the

1001
00:39:53,109 --> 00:39:50,079
chapter on coronaries and heart attacks

1002
00:39:56,710 --> 00:39:53,119
being annotated he annotated everything

1003
00:39:59,270 --> 00:39:56,720
not just the vero edition he annotated

1004
00:40:01,589 --> 00:39:59,280
everything he annotated the christmas

1005
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:01,599
cards he would send his family he would

1006
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:03,359
underline things and write things on the

1007
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,760
edges of the cards almost like a

1008
00:40:08,309 --> 00:40:07,280
compulsion

1009
00:40:09,910 --> 00:40:08,319
he says

1010
00:40:11,589 --> 00:40:09,920
well his brother randolph says i have

1011
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:11,599
children who have never met their uncle

1012
00:40:15,990 --> 00:40:14,079
carl they never will either

1013
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,000
he scares my wife

1014
00:40:20,390 --> 00:40:18,319
he's an outcast as brothers say by his

1015
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:20,400
own choice who has nothing to show for

1016
00:40:24,150 --> 00:40:21,920
himself but his marvelous tale of a

1017
00:40:26,309 --> 00:40:24,160
disappearing ship and a legendary book

1018
00:40:28,550 --> 00:40:26,319
he claims to have co-authored the

1019
00:40:30,230 --> 00:40:28,560
supposedly vacant farmhouse that the onr

1020
00:40:32,309 --> 00:40:30,240
man visited

1021
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:32,319
was never vacant his brothers are

1022
00:40:35,670 --> 00:40:34,400
confused by what vacant house this

1023
00:40:38,710 --> 00:40:35,680
person might have seen because there

1024
00:40:41,109 --> 00:40:38,720
were no vacant houses nearby not within

1025
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:41,119
five miles or so

1026
00:40:46,309 --> 00:40:43,040
which gorman says

1027
00:40:49,430 --> 00:40:46,319
brings us to the philadelphia experiment

1028
00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:49,440
did he know anything about it at all

1029
00:40:52,870 --> 00:40:51,200
he asked carl's brother and carl's

1030
00:40:53,670 --> 00:40:52,880
brother said you'll never nail carl on

1031
00:40:55,109 --> 00:40:53,680
this

1032
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:55,119
between changing the subject and

1033
00:40:58,230 --> 00:40:56,960
changing his story whenever anyone gets

1034
00:41:01,430 --> 00:40:58,240
close

1035
00:41:03,589 --> 00:41:01,440
well i wish you luck and that tallies

1036
00:41:06,630 --> 00:41:03,599
exactly with what moore said in the

1037
00:41:08,470 --> 00:41:06,640
philadelphia experiment book about how

1038
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:08,480
cagey and evasive

1039
00:41:15,109 --> 00:41:12,319
carl slash carlos allen slash allende

1040
00:41:17,829 --> 00:41:15,119
could be gorman closes his article with

1041
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:17,839
a rundown of some of the inconsistencies

1042
00:41:23,910 --> 00:41:21,599
and confusion that alan tried to create

1043
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:23,920
when discussing the philadelphia

1044
00:41:28,069 --> 00:41:26,160
experiment particularly about the ships

1045
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,079
that were involved

1046
00:41:32,870 --> 00:41:30,160
in mauren burlitz's book

1047
00:41:35,589 --> 00:41:32,880
he states it was the de173

1048
00:41:37,430 --> 00:41:35,599
and his august second 1979 letter to me

1049
00:41:41,829 --> 00:41:37,440
carl allen writes in postscript there

1050
00:41:43,990 --> 00:41:41,839
were two and presently are two de173s

1051
00:41:45,109 --> 00:41:44,000
two ships also capable of becoming

1052
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:45,119
visible

1053
00:41:48,870 --> 00:41:47,040
and finally in the annotated version of

1054
00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:48,880
the more burlitz book that carl sent

1055
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:51,440
home to his parents on christmas 1979 he

1056
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:56,400
wrote so as two ships de173 and de168 or

1057
00:42:01,270 --> 00:41:58,640
some such id number were both patrolling

1058
00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:01,280
our sector of the convoy i had a choice

1059
00:42:05,030 --> 00:42:03,200
logic informed me that it was logically

1060
00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:05,040
though de173

1061
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:07,040
i was wrong and it is a good thing i was

1062
00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:08,480
wrong because the real actual

1063
00:42:13,430 --> 00:42:10,560
experimental ship's log book chock full

1064
00:42:15,349 --> 00:42:13,440
of records remains probably undestroyed

1065
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:15,359
and available

1066
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:17,760
that explains a lot he's a strange

1067
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:21,280
brilliant eccentric he's also a little

1068
00:42:27,349 --> 00:42:24,640
touchy he sends gorman a letter in

1069
00:42:29,589 --> 00:42:27,359
september of 1981 here are just a few

1070
00:42:31,990 --> 00:42:29,599
excerpts quote i hate ufologists with a

1071
00:42:33,910 --> 00:42:32,000
fierce angry begrudging purple passion

1072
00:42:36,069 --> 00:42:33,920
i'd prefer to see them all your wordy

1073
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:36,079
self included as dead as dodos have no

1074
00:42:39,750 --> 00:42:37,839
respect at all none whatsoever for

1075
00:42:41,910 --> 00:42:39,760
non-scientists and less for the goofy

1076
00:42:44,790 --> 00:42:41,920
weirdos calling themselves ufologists

1077
00:42:46,550 --> 00:42:44,800
who know worlds less science ufologists

1078
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,560
are like skid row bums they think the

1079
00:42:50,790 --> 00:42:48,400
world owes them a free ride to others

1080
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:50,800
expense and that like the stupid bums of

1081
00:42:55,589 --> 00:42:53,200
free living is owed you also obtained

1082
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:55,599
somebody else's expense

1083
00:43:01,910 --> 00:42:58,240
um i don't actually know if i disagree

1084
00:43:03,510 --> 00:43:01,920
with all of that um he also goes on to

1085
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:03,520
say near the end mr i'll tell you

1086
00:43:06,790 --> 00:43:05,119
something and you will be extremely wise

1087
00:43:08,470 --> 00:43:06,800
to remember it i am coming home to see

1088
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:08,480
my dad and all my other relatives there

1089
00:43:12,470 --> 00:43:10,480
abouts and if you so little to stick

1090
00:43:14,069 --> 00:43:12,480
your empty stupid head within 200 feet

1091
00:43:16,470 --> 00:43:14,079
of wherever i shall be residing i will

1092
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:16,480
be too delightedly happy and in fact

1093
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:18,640
exultantly overjoyed to blow it off with

1094
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,119
my 12 gauge shotgun

1095
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:22,880
and moreover if you so much as call me

1096
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,560
on the telephone i will come after you

1097
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:26,400
with that same 12-gauge shotgun and

1098
00:43:29,829 --> 00:43:28,160
teach you some good manners this is

1099
00:43:32,150 --> 00:43:29,839
because you have shown nothing except

1100
00:43:33,270 --> 00:43:32,160
very bad manners all along

1101
00:43:35,510 --> 00:43:33,280
to me

1102
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:35,520
and this letter is

1103
00:43:38,950 --> 00:43:38,160
like almost everything i've ever seen

1104
00:43:41,670 --> 00:43:38,960
that

1105
00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:41,680
carlos allende has sent to people

1106
00:43:47,349 --> 00:43:43,599
has um

1107
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:47,359
some annotations some underlining

1108
00:43:51,670 --> 00:43:48,640
some

1109
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:51,680
use of words that don't actually

1110
00:43:56,470 --> 00:43:55,040
make sense so it seems that

1111
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:56,480
gorman's

1112
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:59,200
letter or article has solved a lot of

1113
00:44:02,069 --> 00:44:00,400
questions and answered a lot of

1114
00:44:05,510 --> 00:44:02,079
questions about

1115
00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:05,520
carl allen's or carlos allende's

1116
00:44:09,270 --> 00:44:06,880
background

1117
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:09,280
this article generated a letter to

1118
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:12,480
gorman from john keel who had as i

1119
00:44:18,309 --> 00:44:14,720
mentioned before corresponded quite a

1120
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:18,319
bit with allende back in the back in the

1121
00:44:22,390 --> 00:44:19,760
1970s

1122
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:22,400
and keel has some ideas about what might

1123
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:25,520
be going on as well he begins with some

1124
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:27,680
general thoughts about the vero document

1125
00:44:31,589 --> 00:44:29,920
and morris k jessop

1126
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:31,599
first morris k jessup personally

1127
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:33,839
regarded the vero document as a joke he

1128
00:44:37,910 --> 00:44:36,000
openly scoffed at it shortly before his

1129
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:37,920
suicide jessup wrote a long rambling

1130
00:44:41,829 --> 00:44:40,160
letter to long john neville and similar

1131
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:41,839
letters to a few others including han

1132
00:44:45,670 --> 00:44:43,680
stephen santis an editor of a science

1133
00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,680
fiction magazine these were typical

1134
00:44:48,630 --> 00:44:47,359
pre-suicide letters of a depressive

1135
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:48,640
personality

1136
00:44:51,510 --> 00:44:50,000
while there are some odd things about

1137
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:51,520
the way authorities in florida behaved

1138
00:44:55,349 --> 00:44:53,520
in handling his death there's absolutely

1139
00:44:57,190 --> 00:44:55,359
no doubt that jessup ended his own life

1140
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:57,200
because of career setbacks and family

1141
00:44:59,750 --> 00:44:58,160
problems

1142
00:45:01,510 --> 00:44:59,760
just before he killed himself he turned

1143
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:01,520
over his correspondence with allende and

1144
00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:03,280
his personal copy of the vera document

1145
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:05,280
to mr sanderson he had made many

1146
00:45:08,790 --> 00:45:06,880
notations of his own in the margins of

1147
00:45:11,430 --> 00:45:08,800
the vero book all of them questioning

1148
00:45:13,589 --> 00:45:11,440
the validity of a and s's comments and

1149
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:13,599
generally ridiculing their efforts he

1150
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:15,280
felt the whole thing was a waste of time

1151
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:17,119
and money and that allende was a mental

1152
00:45:24,950 --> 00:45:22,470
keel explains that he got in touch with

1153
00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:24,960
allende because while he thought that

1154
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,960
the margin notes and the writing

1155
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,400
indicated

1156
00:45:32,390 --> 00:45:31,119
quote the work of a schizophrenic a dual

1157
00:45:35,109 --> 00:45:32,400
personality

1158
00:45:36,470 --> 00:45:35,119
kill was also intrigued by the accuracy

1159
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:36,480
about some of the comments about

1160
00:45:40,630 --> 00:45:39,119
magnetism and other topics like the

1161
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:40,640
force fields that weren't really being

1162
00:45:46,230 --> 00:45:42,880
talked about much in ufology sort of

1163
00:45:48,230 --> 00:45:46,240
reminding gorman that in 1966 ufology

1164
00:45:50,470 --> 00:45:48,240
had been pretty much paralyzed in this

1165
00:45:52,950 --> 00:45:50,480
this kind of um

1166
00:45:56,150 --> 00:45:52,960
you know air force cover-up nycap nuts

1167
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:56,160
and bolts flying saucer kind of things

1168
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:58,560
keel also has some thoughts about the

1169
00:46:03,510 --> 00:46:01,359
vera documents origins and who might

1170
00:46:05,510 --> 00:46:03,520
really be at fault for

1171
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:05,520
publicizing everything a little bit too

1172
00:46:08,550 --> 00:46:06,560
much

1173
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:08,560
but here's the very important point you

1174
00:46:12,550 --> 00:46:10,000
and all the others have mangled for

1175
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:12,560
years vero was behind the hoax not

1176
00:46:17,109 --> 00:46:15,359
allende or anybody else jessup sanderson

1177
00:46:19,109 --> 00:46:17,119
sanderson myself and everyone else knew

1178
00:46:20,870 --> 00:46:19,119
that allende had written the annotations

1179
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:20,880
ayande admitted on many occasions to

1180
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:23,040
many people one set of notations was

1181
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:25,200
written in his handwriting the other set

1182
00:46:28,550 --> 00:46:26,800
was probably written with his other hand

1183
00:46:30,150 --> 00:46:28,560
and thus disguised

1184
00:46:31,510 --> 00:46:30,160
the introduction of the vero document

1185
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:31,520
tried to make a bigger mystery out of

1186
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,680
the whole thing the vera secretary who

1187
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:35,440
typed the thing up as the perpetrator of

1188
00:46:44,390 --> 00:46:42,710
keel has some sympathy for allende he

1189
00:46:46,069 --> 00:46:44,400
says quote i'm sure that his letters to

1190
00:46:47,990 --> 00:46:46,079
jessup were sincere and that when he

1191
00:46:49,349 --> 00:46:48,000
annotated jessop's book and mailed it to

1192
00:46:51,589 --> 00:46:49,359
the naval office he thought he was

1193
00:46:53,030 --> 00:46:51,599
offering some valid information he never

1194
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:53,040
expected it to snowball into a

1195
00:46:56,390 --> 00:46:54,640
celebrated cause

1196
00:46:58,790 --> 00:46:56,400
jessup suggested that the navy throw the

1197
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,800
book into a waste paper basket instead

1198
00:47:03,030 --> 00:47:00,560
they passed it on to the nest of ufo

1199
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:03,040
believers at vero later ayande presented

1200
00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:04,800
himself at vero and was giving copies of

1201
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:07,040
the book he told them he had written all

1202
00:47:13,270 --> 00:47:10,000
the annotations so keel is really

1203
00:47:15,670 --> 00:47:13,280
pinning a lot of this on people at vero

1204
00:47:17,109 --> 00:47:15,680
and i wish i had more information about

1205
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:17,119
those people at pharaoh who might have

1206
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:20,559
wanted to do this it's still a very very

1207
00:47:22,790 --> 00:47:21,680
fuzzy

1208
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:22,800
sort of

1209
00:47:27,589 --> 00:47:25,280
narrative like several of you you know

1210
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:27,599
sent me messages about after our morris

1211
00:47:32,309 --> 00:47:29,280
k jessup episode

1212
00:47:34,630 --> 00:47:32,319
the whole question of why the onr and

1213
00:47:38,150 --> 00:47:34,640
vero went to the trouble of doing all

1214
00:47:41,109 --> 00:47:38,160
this is still i think very much an open

1215
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:41,119
question keel also has what i think is a

1216
00:47:46,069 --> 00:47:44,160
really really good and interesting maybe

1217
00:47:50,069 --> 00:47:46,079
not necessarily true but good and

1218
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:50,079
interesting speculation on how allende

1219
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,359
might have put things together in his

1220
00:47:56,870 --> 00:47:54,000
head to come up with the ideas he did

1221
00:47:58,549 --> 00:47:56,880
about the philadelphia experiment

1222
00:48:00,309 --> 00:47:58,559
while researching my book on the atomic

1223
00:48:01,910 --> 00:48:00,319
bomb in the nuclear mess i discovered

1224
00:48:03,589 --> 00:48:01,920
that the manhattan project took over

1225
00:48:05,829 --> 00:48:03,599
part of the philadelphia navy yard in

1226
00:48:07,670 --> 00:48:05,839
the 1940s and that one ship was loaded

1227
00:48:09,990 --> 00:48:07,680
with atomic lab gear including cloud

1228
00:48:12,470 --> 00:48:10,000
chambers heavy magnetic units degaussing

1229
00:48:13,910 --> 00:48:12,480
coils etc civilians in the area at the

1230
00:48:15,829 --> 00:48:13,920
time must have been mystified by the

1231
00:48:18,069 --> 00:48:15,839
bearded scientist most of whom spoke

1232
00:48:20,150 --> 00:48:18,079
hungarian accents who visited the area

1233
00:48:21,670 --> 00:48:20,160
clutching briefcases the manhattan

1234
00:48:23,910 --> 00:48:21,680
project security force probably

1235
00:48:25,829 --> 00:48:23,920
circulated false stories cover stories

1236
00:48:27,589 --> 00:48:25,839
about what was going on there these

1237
00:48:30,630 --> 00:48:27,599
stories undoubtedly reached allende's

1238
00:48:32,230 --> 00:48:30,640
ears garbled and over dramatized

1239
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:32,240
during the war years a magician named

1240
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:34,000
dunninger was very famous he had a very

1241
00:48:38,470 --> 00:48:36,079
popular radio show and was a master at

1242
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:38,480
publicizing himself he brashly announced

1243
00:48:41,829 --> 00:48:39,839
to the press that he had figured out a

1244
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:41,839
way to make ships invisible and he was

1245
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:44,160
donating this idea to the war effort his

1246
00:48:47,829 --> 00:48:45,520
claim made the front page of all the

1247
00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:47,839
newspapers just as he knew it would and

1248
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:49,040
nothing further was heard of his

1249
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:51,359
wonderful discovery however one man

1250
00:48:55,430 --> 00:48:53,599
tucked it away in his memory years later

1251
00:48:57,109 --> 00:48:55,440
this poor confused schizoid brain would

1252
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:57,119
combine the dunninger claim with the

1253
00:49:04,790 --> 00:48:59,359
manhattan project's cover stories and a

1254
00:49:08,150 --> 00:49:06,309
i don't know

1255
00:49:16,069 --> 00:49:08,160
i

1256
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,079
we don't know that we can't know that we

1257
00:49:20,150 --> 00:49:18,640
can't know his thought processes

1258
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:20,160
but

1259
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:23,280
i don't know it just seems like a very

1260
00:49:27,990 --> 00:49:26,079
plausible sequence of events that kiel

1261
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:28,000
lays out here kiel then

1262
00:49:34,309 --> 00:49:31,599
being john keel goes into some detail on

1263
00:49:37,109 --> 00:49:34,319
the philadelphia experiment book and how

1264
00:49:38,870 --> 00:49:37,119
he was probably ripped off in some way

1265
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:38,880
if you've been around keel stuff for a

1266
00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:40,880
while you'll notice that there is a

1267
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:43,040
there's often a sense of

1268
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:44,480
sort of

1269
00:49:48,309 --> 00:49:46,079
begrudged

1270
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:48,319
sort of grievance at the heart of a lot

1271
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:49,680
of things

1272
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:52,319
now let's jump ahead to 1975. i had a

1273
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:54,000
series of meetings with charles burlitz

1274
00:49:57,430 --> 00:49:55,839
that year he told me he was writing a

1275
00:49:58,870 --> 00:49:57,440
book about allende and i told him that

1276
00:50:00,549 --> 00:49:58,880
the whole thing was a sad demented

1277
00:50:03,270 --> 00:50:00,559
affair and that would be best to leave

1278
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:03,280
it alone but i lent him mayande file

1279
00:50:06,309 --> 00:50:04,480
then i got a letter from a young

1280
00:50:07,990 --> 00:50:06,319
schoolteacher in the midwest he said he

1281
00:50:10,069 --> 00:50:08,000
was researching the allende business and

1282
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:10,079
asked for advice i wrote to him and told

1283
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:11,200
him that he should contact charles

1284
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:13,359
burlitz i even sent him burlitz's home

1285
00:50:17,109 --> 00:50:15,200
address and private phone number he was

1286
00:50:19,109 --> 00:50:17,119
of course william moore and i never

1287
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,119
heard from him again he contacted

1288
00:50:23,030 --> 00:50:20,720
burlitz and together they can drive the

1289
00:50:24,870 --> 00:50:23,040
book on the philadelphia experiment the

1290
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,880
book made money moore was able to quit

1291
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:26,559
his teaching job and become a full-time

1292
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,559
writer i literally changed his whole

1293
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:30,319
life yet he has never written to thank

1294
00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:32,160
me for introducing him to burlitz and

1295
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:33,760
never contacted me when he passed

1296
00:50:36,950 --> 00:50:35,599
through new york we did have one

1297
00:50:38,710 --> 00:50:36,960
accidental encounter while he was

1298
00:50:40,549 --> 00:50:38,720
visiting a mutual friend

1299
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:40,559
the material in my allende file was

1300
00:50:43,910 --> 00:50:42,000
never mentioned in the more burlap's

1301
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,920
book nor was any of the other wealth of

1302
00:50:49,190 --> 00:50:45,440
negative material to be found in

1303
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:50,870
true not

1304
00:50:55,910 --> 00:50:53,440
who knows but we do know that keel had a

1305
00:50:58,630 --> 00:50:55,920
lot of correspondence with allende we do

1306
00:51:01,349 --> 00:50:58,640
know that kiel had talked to sanderson

1307
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,359
about a lot of this stuff and we do know

1308
00:51:04,870 --> 00:51:03,200
that

1309
00:51:06,309 --> 00:51:04,880
moore and burlitz really had no idea

1310
00:51:08,069 --> 00:51:06,319
about any of this before they started

1311
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:08,079
working on the book as far as i could

1312
00:51:12,309 --> 00:51:09,280
tell so

1313
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:12,319
maybe plausible maybe not keel closes

1314
00:51:16,390 --> 00:51:13,760
his letter with

1315
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:16,400
some interesting observations that i

1316
00:51:20,950 --> 00:51:18,800
don't entirely disagree with

1317
00:51:23,109 --> 00:51:20,960
allende was supposedly dying of cancer

1318
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:23,119
in 1970 but he is probably still out

1319
00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:24,480
there somewhere writing long

1320
00:51:28,230 --> 00:51:25,920
dissociative letters to anyone who

1321
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:28,240
mentions his name in print grey barker

1322
00:51:31,910 --> 00:51:29,599
is still selling reproductions of the

1323
00:51:33,510 --> 00:51:31,920
vera book for an unseemly price and

1324
00:51:35,349 --> 00:51:33,520
anyone who offers the true facts about

1325
00:51:36,870 --> 00:51:35,359
the non-existent philadelphia experiment

1326
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:36,880
will be shouted down as a pawn of the

1327
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:39,839
air force conspiracy like 90 of the ufo

1328
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:41,920
lore there was never anything to it but

1329
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:44,319
carl allen was not a conscious hoaxer if

1330
00:51:47,670 --> 00:51:46,480
anything he's one of ufology's biggest

1331
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,680
victims

1332
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:48,880
all the best

1333
00:51:59,430 --> 00:51:56,549
so allendes roaming around

1334
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,440
you know writing letters to

1335
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,520
robert gorman being very angry writing

1336
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,040
letters to gray barker that don't get

1337
00:52:07,829 --> 00:52:05,520
replies because barker has died

1338
00:52:09,190 --> 00:52:07,839
eventually he moves out west or a

1339
00:52:11,670 --> 00:52:09,200
different place out west he was in

1340
00:52:14,950 --> 00:52:11,680
mexico he moves to colorado greeley

1341
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:14,960
colorado and in 1985 he was interviewed

1342
00:52:19,030 --> 00:52:17,680
for a local newspaper in greeley and

1343
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,040
said that

1344
00:52:24,710 --> 00:52:22,079
it was his deathbed statement the the

1345
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:24,720
headline is mystery man author's

1346
00:52:30,150 --> 00:52:27,680
deathbed statement the riddle of carlos

1347
00:52:32,390 --> 00:52:30,160
allende resolved

1348
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:32,400
carlos allende a mystery man and recluse

1349
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:34,480
of the 20th century has been hiding out

1350
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:36,960
in greeley colorado sought by many he is

1351
00:52:41,030 --> 00:52:39,440
the subject of at least 22 books most

1352
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:41,040
authors conclude by asking his true

1353
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:43,040
whereabouts if only we could find the

1354
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:45,280
true carlos allende states one writer we

1355
00:52:49,829 --> 00:52:48,210
could ask him our questions

1356
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,839
[Music]

1357
00:52:53,910 --> 00:52:51,839
after a very brief summary of the

1358
00:52:56,150 --> 00:52:53,920
philadelphia experiment story the

1359
00:52:58,069 --> 00:52:56,160
reporter describes sitting outside on a

1360
00:52:59,510 --> 00:52:58,079
bench in the park

1361
00:53:02,230 --> 00:52:59,520
with

1362
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:02,240
carlos in greeley california and relates

1363
00:53:08,470 --> 00:53:06,400
that greely was an 1869 experiment to

1364
00:53:10,309 --> 00:53:08,480
settle and civilize the west and it

1365
00:53:13,349 --> 00:53:10,319
worked and people moved beyond the

1366
00:53:16,230 --> 00:53:13,359
mississippi and now the reporter says

1367
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:16,240
carlos wants america to try another

1368
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:18,240
experiment

1369
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:21,040
said

1370
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,040
that was what frightened the military

1371
00:53:26,390 --> 00:53:24,720
they didn't know what einstein was doing

1372
00:53:28,549 --> 00:53:26,400
he used them to accomplish his own

1373
00:53:30,069 --> 00:53:28,559
research and propulsion he believed we

1374
00:53:30,870 --> 00:53:30,079
could travel faster than the speed of

1375
00:53:32,950 --> 00:53:30,880
light

1376
00:53:33,890 --> 00:53:32,960
that's what he was doing and they didn't

1377
00:53:36,790 --> 00:53:33,900
even know it

1378
00:53:38,790 --> 00:53:36,800
[Music]

1379
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:38,800
carlos then goes on to tell the reporter

1380
00:53:45,030 --> 00:53:42,079
about force fields and visible force

1381
00:53:48,390 --> 00:53:45,040
fields and invisible force fields and

1382
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:48,400
the ship and how all of this can be done

1383
00:53:51,990 --> 00:53:49,920
to

1384
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:52,000
provide energy sources and propulsion

1385
00:53:56,549 --> 00:53:54,160
sources that we can't dream of basically

1386
00:53:58,950 --> 00:53:56,559
this is the philadelphia experiment was

1387
00:54:03,109 --> 00:53:58,960
all about einstein and then we get a

1388
00:54:04,710 --> 00:54:03,119
description of carlos as he was in 85 as

1389
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:04,720
he was being interviewed

1390
00:54:09,190 --> 00:54:07,200
carlos is 61 he wore tweed trousers and

1391
00:54:11,190 --> 00:54:09,200
a jacket in his pockets were stuffed a

1392
00:54:13,910 --> 00:54:11,200
variety of pens and pencils paper and

1393
00:54:15,670 --> 00:54:13,920
notes he was thin on his wrists he wore

1394
00:54:17,510 --> 00:54:15,680
medical bracelets he had been

1395
00:54:19,589 --> 00:54:17,520
hospitalized with a racing heart several

1396
00:54:21,750 --> 00:54:19,599
times during the previous week

1397
00:54:24,150 --> 00:54:21,760
it must be fate he said this is my

1398
00:54:25,910 --> 00:54:24,160
deathbed statement in case i die the

1399
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:25,920
questions will be answered

1400
00:54:28,590 --> 00:54:27,440
all but one

1401
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:28,600
that'll die with me

1402
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:32,079
[Music]

1403
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:34,079
the article concludes with carlos

1404
00:54:38,470 --> 00:54:36,480
telling the reporter just what

1405
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:38,480
is at stake if we

1406
00:54:41,829 --> 00:54:39,839
are able to

1407
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:41,839
carry out einstein's experiments that he

1408
00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:44,400
began using the philadelphia experiment

1409
00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:47,760
which was carlos says just a cover for

1410
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:50,720
einstein's own private investigation

1411
00:54:54,870 --> 00:54:53,280
into faster than light propulsion

1412
00:54:56,950 --> 00:54:54,880
we can have starships and we need them

1413
00:54:58,870 --> 00:54:56,960
for defense imagine the mountain space

1414
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:58,880
beyond the moon russia launches a

1415
00:55:02,630 --> 00:55:00,640
nuclear attack the starships could

1416
00:55:04,789 --> 00:55:02,640
return with laser cannons blasting

1417
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:04,799
repeating laser cannons capable of

1418
00:55:09,270 --> 00:55:06,480
incinerating every major city in the

1419
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:09,280
ussr it's reasonable we could have a

1420
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:10,880
fleet of starships unrivaled in the

1421
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:12,960
world starships capable of protecting

1422
00:55:18,309 --> 00:55:15,040
america from surprise attack

1423
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,319
[Music]

1424
00:55:23,829 --> 00:55:21,119
this is so strange it seems to me to be

1425
00:55:26,230 --> 00:55:23,839
an attempt by carlos to sort of

1426
00:55:28,230 --> 00:55:26,240
rest the narrative of the philadelphia

1427
00:55:31,510 --> 00:55:28,240
experiment back from

1428
00:55:34,150 --> 00:55:31,520
the moore and berlitz book and back from

1429
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,160
the early 1980s philadelphia experiment

1430
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:37,040
movie that had come out shortly before

1431
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:38,400
this

1432
00:55:41,990 --> 00:55:40,640
deathbed statement it's not really a

1433
00:55:43,990 --> 00:55:42,000
deathbed statement he would live for

1434
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:44,000
another nine years and yes we will be

1435
00:55:49,430 --> 00:55:46,480
talking about that movie on our next

1436
00:55:52,470 --> 00:55:49,440
episode carlos allende carl allen would

1437
00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:52,480
fade from the scene as new figures as

1438
00:55:57,030 --> 00:55:54,480
we'll see next time arose on the

1439
00:55:58,069 --> 00:55:57,040
philadelphia experiment

1440
00:56:00,630 --> 00:55:58,079
circuit

1441
00:56:04,390 --> 00:56:00,640
and carlos himself would die on march

1442
00:56:07,349 --> 00:56:04,400
5th 1994 at centennial healthcare center

1443
00:56:08,230 --> 00:56:07,359
in greeley colorado and that would seem

1444
00:56:10,870 --> 00:56:08,240
to be

1445
00:56:13,829 --> 00:56:10,880
the end of the story of carlos allende

1446
00:56:16,430 --> 00:56:13,839
except for a book

1447
00:56:20,870 --> 00:56:16,440
that came out in

1448
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:20,880
2016 double checking 2012 sorry by

1449
00:56:27,109 --> 00:56:24,400
a woman named pj dowers called hoax

1450
00:56:30,150 --> 00:56:27,119
the philadelphia experiment unraveled

1451
00:56:33,589 --> 00:56:30,160
and she released this book commercial

1452
00:56:36,470 --> 00:56:33,599
for it on youtube i'm p.j dowers author

1453
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:36,480
of hoax the philadelphia experiment

1454
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:37,920
unraveled

1455
00:56:41,670 --> 00:56:39,920
please just take two minutes

1456
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:41,680
to hear about my book and how an old

1457
00:56:47,349 --> 00:56:44,799
man's tale spurred my son and me

1458
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:47,359
to research his story of an invisible

1459
00:56:52,309 --> 00:56:49,920
ship and its crew

1460
00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:52,319
unlike other accounts my book gives you

1461
00:56:58,230 --> 00:56:54,720
facts verified facts

1462
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:58,240
that uncover a shocking convoluted hoax

1463
00:57:03,589 --> 00:57:00,960
using invisibility as a cover-up

1464
00:57:05,589 --> 00:57:03,599
for a bone-chilling outrage

1465
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:05,599
it's alleged that sailors were melded

1466
00:57:09,430 --> 00:57:07,520
into parts of the ship

1467
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:09,440
and the survivors put away them as

1468
00:57:14,710 --> 00:57:13,760
insane but were they follow ray and me

1469
00:57:17,510 --> 00:57:14,720
as we

1470
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:17,520
untangle this fabrication follow rey as

1471
00:57:21,990 --> 00:57:19,200
he follows allende

1472
00:57:24,789 --> 00:57:22,000
and read ray's startling conclusions

1473
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:24,799
our disinformants pay to lie

1474
00:57:30,630 --> 00:57:27,839
who faked his own suicide

1475
00:57:32,549 --> 00:57:30,640
who was elendi really

1476
00:57:34,390 --> 00:57:32,559
my book is at the book patch where

1477
00:57:35,829 --> 00:57:34,400
services are affordable and their

1478
00:57:40,630 --> 00:57:35,839
expertise

1479
00:57:42,830 --> 00:57:40,640
support and patience are priceless

1480
00:57:44,230 --> 00:57:42,840
order at the book patch

1481
00:57:45,910 --> 00:57:44,240
[Applause]

1482
00:57:50,390 --> 00:57:45,920
dot com or

1483
00:57:55,750 --> 00:57:53,510
thank you for watching my video

1484
00:57:57,349 --> 00:57:55,760
the thebookpatch.com is a real place and

1485
00:57:59,510 --> 00:57:57,359
i was able to purchase the book i was

1486
00:58:02,150 --> 00:57:59,520
terrified because it was the only place

1487
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:02,160
i could find the book i usually order my

1488
00:58:05,430 --> 00:58:03,280
books through

1489
00:58:07,670 --> 00:58:05,440
places that don't look like they came

1490
00:58:11,910 --> 00:58:07,680
out of the internet um completely

1491
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:11,920
untouched from 2012 and i didn't look

1492
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:13,280
into their

1493
00:58:19,109 --> 00:58:15,839
self-publishing indie publishing

1494
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:19,119
processes and um and prices and

1495
00:58:24,069 --> 00:58:21,440
everything but i can only hope

1496
00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:24,079
that ms dowers was not charged something

1497
00:58:28,549 --> 00:58:26,000
like 500

1498
00:58:31,589 --> 00:58:28,559
for them to produce that youtube video

1499
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:31,599
for her because it was on their

1500
00:58:37,109 --> 00:58:34,559
channel so i got this book

1501
00:58:40,630 --> 00:58:37,119
and it is

1502
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:40,640
it is a doozy oh my goodness i don't

1503
00:58:43,430 --> 00:58:41,440
know

1504
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:43,440
how i'm going to explain this to you but

1505
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:46,000
listen to the opening lines listen to

1506
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:47,520
this just

1507
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:49,680
just drink this in

1508
00:58:53,030 --> 00:58:51,280
secrets are delicious from the

1509
00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:53,040
titillating rattle of bones in someone

1510
00:58:56,309 --> 00:58:54,720
else's closet to the shrieking delight

1511
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:56,319
of jerking covers off big government

1512
00:59:04,789 --> 00:58:59,040
shenanigans secrets seduce pulling at us

1513
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:08,309
down oh my goodness this is

1514
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:10,880
this is this this whole thing is quite a

1515
00:59:15,270 --> 00:59:12,799
trip so as we heard in the commercial

1516
00:59:16,470 --> 00:59:15,280
this is the story of an old man that old

1517
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:16,480
man is

1518
00:59:22,470 --> 00:59:20,240
carlos allende how does she learn about

1519
00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:22,480
carlos allende her and her son ray how

1520
00:59:26,549 --> 00:59:24,160
do they learn about him

1521
00:59:28,309 --> 00:59:26,559
how do i know all this my son ray and i

1522
00:59:30,390 --> 00:59:28,319
knew a man who called himself carlos

1523
00:59:32,150 --> 00:59:30,400
alendi living at the nursing home where

1524
00:59:33,750 --> 00:59:32,160
two of my daughters were employed carlos

1525
00:59:35,589 --> 00:59:33,760
became friends with ray and told him of

1526
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:35,599
the experiment he saw out there on the

1527
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:36,090
ocean

1528
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:38,559
[Music]

1529
00:59:44,710 --> 00:59:42,400
yes they lived in greeley colorado and

1530
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:44,720
her daughters worked at that centennial

1531
00:59:48,789 --> 00:59:46,480
healthcare place where

1532
00:59:52,150 --> 00:59:48,799
carlos eventually died

1533
00:59:54,549 --> 00:59:52,160
in 1994. dowers explains that her book

1534
00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:54,559
is going to be the unvarnished truth of

1535
00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:56,799
what actually happened

1536
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:58,640
without the lighting shadows vocal

1537
01:00:02,630 --> 01:00:00,720
innuendos and sideways knowing gays of a

1538
01:00:05,030 --> 01:00:02,640
narrator here's the gist of how carlos

1539
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:05,040
alendy and morris jessup became entwined

1540
01:00:09,030 --> 01:00:06,640
in each other's lives and in the story

1541
01:00:11,670 --> 01:00:09,040
known as the philadelphia experiment

1542
01:00:16,549 --> 01:00:11,680
then there's the secret we believe onr

1543
01:00:21,990 --> 01:00:19,270
by the way the pronunciation of elendi

1544
01:00:23,990 --> 01:00:22,000
instead of allende is intentional

1545
01:00:25,990 --> 01:00:24,000
somewhere in the book she explains that

1546
01:00:28,069 --> 01:00:26,000
she doesn't know why these people don't

1547
01:00:31,109 --> 01:00:28,079
do their research and call him carlos

1548
01:00:32,710 --> 01:00:31,119
ayendy because or allende because she

1549
01:00:35,829 --> 01:00:32,720
talked to him and he always re

1550
01:00:38,390 --> 01:00:35,839
pronounced it allendy which is not true

1551
01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:38,400
i did hear one clip of carlos and he

1552
01:00:42,549 --> 01:00:40,160
interest induces himself very

1553
01:00:45,109 --> 01:00:42,559
specifically as carlos allende

1554
01:00:48,150 --> 01:00:45,119
so he's putting on a show for her as

1555
01:00:49,510 --> 01:00:48,160
well and it's quite a show she describes

1556
01:00:50,950 --> 01:00:49,520
the first time

1557
01:00:53,990 --> 01:00:50,960
she met him

1558
01:00:55,829 --> 01:00:54,000
rey's mother carlos breathed wonderingly

1559
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,839
he didn't grasp my hand but held it

1560
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:57,599
gently while his eyes moved tenderly

1561
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:58,880
over my face

1562
01:01:02,549 --> 01:01:01,200
i'm so pleased to meet you

1563
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:02,559
the old gentleman's voice was a bit

1564
01:01:07,910 --> 01:01:05,760
gravelly but low pitched cultivated warm

1565
01:01:10,710 --> 01:01:07,920
his charisma was almost tangible he

1566
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:10,720
exuded a gentle irresistible intensity i

1567
01:01:15,589 --> 01:01:13,520
returned his gaze speechless

1568
01:01:18,069 --> 01:01:15,599
thank you i managed finally remembering

1569
01:01:20,230 --> 01:01:18,079
to smile the moment lengthened growing

1570
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:20,240
uncomfortable i wanted to withdraw my

1571
01:01:27,750 --> 01:01:24,720
hand but i didn't want to offend him

1572
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:27,760
what in the name of hell is going on

1573
01:01:31,990 --> 01:01:30,240
here is what i wrote in the margin of

1574
01:01:34,789 --> 01:01:32,000
this book because

1575
01:01:36,630 --> 01:01:34,799
are is this some sort of weird carlos

1576
01:01:40,470 --> 01:01:36,640
allende

1577
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,480
creepy fanfic this is strange she seems

1578
01:01:45,270 --> 01:01:42,319
a little smitten with the guy and that's

1579
01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:45,280
a thread that continues throughout the

1580
01:01:49,589 --> 01:01:48,160
book and as the book goes on we hear

1581
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:49,599
carlos's

1582
01:01:53,990 --> 01:01:51,440
interpretation or his telling of the

1583
01:01:56,870 --> 01:01:54,000
philadelphia experiment it's very much

1584
01:01:59,309 --> 01:01:56,880
like what we get in that death bed uh

1585
01:02:03,750 --> 01:01:59,319
death bed confession from

1586
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:03,760
1985. he studied with einstein he was

1587
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,760
just this guy who was going around but

1588
01:02:09,589 --> 01:02:07,440
he's going around in the merchant marine

1589
01:02:11,750 --> 01:02:09,599
but he's brilliant and einstein was on

1590
01:02:13,190 --> 01:02:11,760
his ship and during one of these

1591
01:02:14,870 --> 01:02:13,200
encounters

1592
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:14,880
on the ship while they were doing things

1593
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:18,000
he saw a ufo the big sort of

1594
01:02:23,670 --> 01:02:20,960
sort of mothership or arc that the lms

1595
01:02:25,270 --> 01:02:23,680
and sms talked about in the annotated

1596
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:25,280
edition of

1597
01:02:29,510 --> 01:02:27,440
uh the case for the ufo

1598
01:02:31,829 --> 01:02:29,520
i was on the melee in the atlantic it

1599
01:02:33,670 --> 01:02:31,839
was a coast wise assignment that object

1600
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:33,680
went across the gulf of alaska and was

1601
01:02:37,589 --> 01:02:35,760
next seen over juno it went across

1602
01:02:39,670 --> 01:02:37,599
canada and down to chicago where it made

1603
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:39,680
an intelligently controlled maneuver it

1604
01:02:43,750 --> 01:02:41,760
turned south toward indianapolis then it

1605
01:02:45,510 --> 01:02:43,760
turned again and headed out to sea it

1606
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:45,520
came right out over us and made two more

1607
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,520
intelligently controlled maneuvers a

1608
01:02:50,570 --> 01:02:49,920
slight right-hand turn then a big left

1609
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,580
turn

1610
01:02:54,710 --> 01:02:52,240
[Music]

1611
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,720
darris's son rey asked about the people

1612
01:02:58,390 --> 01:02:56,400
who were on this ship what kind of

1613
01:03:00,870 --> 01:02:58,400
people were they

1614
01:03:02,390 --> 01:03:00,880
yeah nice folks too when the big ship

1615
01:03:04,069 --> 01:03:02,400
exploded those little ships took a lot

1616
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:04,079
of force pushing some of them out into

1617
01:03:06,309 --> 01:03:04,960
the sea

1618
01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:06,319
a lot of those people were killed but

1619
01:03:09,430 --> 01:03:08,480
about 100 or 50 so the smaller craft got

1620
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:09,440
away

1621
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:11,119
the explosion slammed one of them into

1622
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:13,200
our ship's anchor it was just a one-man

1623
01:03:16,470 --> 01:03:14,720
craft but he was taking a sweetheart

1624
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:16,480
with him on his lap her chest was

1625
01:03:19,349 --> 01:03:18,000
crushed in the crash and she died the

1626
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:19,359
next day

1627
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:20,640
yeah

1628
01:03:23,910 --> 01:03:21,530
she died

1629
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:23,920
[Music]

1630
01:03:29,349 --> 01:03:28,400
this is all so weird you cannot imagine

1631
01:03:33,190 --> 01:03:29,359
just

1632
01:03:34,870 --> 01:03:33,200
when i was reading this book because

1633
01:03:36,470 --> 01:03:34,880
he's busting out the story of oh yeah

1634
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:36,480
they were leaving the mother ship and he

1635
01:03:39,589 --> 01:03:37,839
was in a little ship and but he had his

1636
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:39,599
girlfriend on his lap and they crashed

1637
01:03:42,789 --> 01:03:41,599
it was it was a bad scene man

1638
01:03:45,430 --> 01:03:42,799
it's just

1639
01:03:49,430 --> 01:03:45,440
so strange oh and here's another tender

1640
01:03:51,910 --> 01:03:49,440
moment between the author and carlos

1641
01:03:53,510 --> 01:03:51,920
carlos stood up too i extended my hand

1642
01:03:55,430 --> 01:03:53,520
he ignored my gesture to shake and

1643
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:55,440
gently took my hand in his held it a

1644
01:03:59,910 --> 01:03:58,240
moment then kissed it i was floored my

1645
01:04:02,430 --> 01:03:59,920
face felt hot but surely i couldn't be

1646
01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:02,440
blushing i was 55 years old

1647
01:04:06,230 --> 01:04:04,160
[Music]

1648
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:06,240
those sweet tender moments would

1649
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:08,880
actually be kind of sweet if

1650
01:04:14,309 --> 01:04:11,200
i didn't have the impression from all

1651
01:04:16,789 --> 01:04:14,319
the stuff that i've read that carlos was

1652
01:04:18,870 --> 01:04:16,799
kind of a skeezy con man in a lot of

1653
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:18,880
ways so in the promotional video for her

1654
01:04:23,510 --> 01:04:20,319
book you heard

1655
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:23,520
ms dowers describe her book

1656
01:04:26,470 --> 01:04:25,200
use the word i think she used the word

1657
01:04:28,470 --> 01:04:26,480
convoluted

1658
01:04:32,069 --> 01:04:28,480
to explain some of the things she

1659
01:04:34,789 --> 01:04:32,079
learned and that is an amazingly

1660
01:04:37,430 --> 01:04:34,799
accurate way to put not just the things

1661
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:37,440
she thinks she and her son uncovered but

1662
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:39,440
the way the book is written there's a

1663
01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:42,400
lot of things relayed through

1664
01:04:47,990 --> 01:04:44,960
dialogue that sort of

1665
01:04:49,430 --> 01:04:48,000
recreate conversations that

1666
01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:49,440
might not have happened the way they

1667
01:04:53,829 --> 01:04:51,200
actually happen because you can't always

1668
01:04:56,390 --> 01:04:53,839
accurately recreate dialogue and and you

1669
01:04:59,349 --> 01:04:56,400
sort of shape it and

1670
01:05:02,390 --> 01:04:59,359
it it's it's very creative but i'm gonna

1671
01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:02,400
go through and try to explain some of

1672
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:06,160
the theories and ideas and solutions

1673
01:05:10,630 --> 01:05:08,720
dowers thinks she and her son

1674
01:05:13,430 --> 01:05:10,640
arrived at logically probably the

1675
01:05:15,990 --> 01:05:13,440
biggest thing in this book as far as

1676
01:05:18,789 --> 01:05:16,000
what the word hoax refers to in the

1677
01:05:23,910 --> 01:05:18,799
title is what actually happened

1678
01:05:27,430 --> 01:05:23,920
to morris k jessup here is a scene where

1679
01:05:28,950 --> 01:05:27,440
ms dowers is talking to carlos about

1680
01:05:30,710 --> 01:05:28,960
morris jessup

1681
01:05:32,230 --> 01:05:30,720
you know something about a year or so

1682
01:05:34,230 --> 01:05:32,240
after he was supposed to have died he

1683
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:34,240
and i talked all night long

1684
01:05:37,029 --> 01:05:36,000
well i was going to ask if you ever met

1685
01:05:40,470 --> 01:05:37,039
him

1686
01:05:41,750 --> 01:05:40,480
then it dawned on me what carlos had

1687
01:05:43,670 --> 01:05:41,760
just said

1688
01:05:45,190 --> 01:05:43,680
what do you mean after he was supposed

1689
01:05:47,349 --> 01:05:45,200
to have died

1690
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:47,359
well what happened was he got the guy

1691
01:05:51,190 --> 01:05:48,799
that was sent to get him and then he

1692
01:05:53,349 --> 01:05:51,200
took that man's name we talked all that

1693
01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:53,359
night and most of the next week

1694
01:05:58,069 --> 01:05:55,520
did either of you have any idea who was

1695
01:05:59,829 --> 01:05:58,079
after jessup what was his name i just

1696
01:06:01,510 --> 01:05:59,839
wondered what name jessup took after the

1697
01:06:03,589 --> 01:06:01,520
fake suicide

1698
01:06:05,349 --> 01:06:03,599
he said it was a professional assassin

1699
01:06:07,109 --> 01:06:05,359
the guy that was after him

1700
01:06:09,270 --> 01:06:07,119
i've had a guy knocking on my door with

1701
01:06:11,430 --> 01:06:09,280
a 38 pistol in his hand and it was oh my

1702
01:06:13,270 --> 01:06:11,440
goodness 27 degrees below zero when he

1703
01:06:15,510 --> 01:06:13,280
froze out

1704
01:06:17,190 --> 01:06:15,520
you didn't answer the door

1705
01:06:18,549 --> 01:06:17,200
oh i was across the street behind him

1706
01:06:20,549 --> 01:06:18,559
sitting on a wall and he didn't know i

1707
01:06:24,230 --> 01:06:20,559
was anywhere near i had a government

1708
01:06:28,630 --> 01:06:25,750
if that doesn't make any sense don't

1709
01:06:30,789 --> 01:06:28,640
worry it's not you so basically what's

1710
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:30,799
coming out here is that

1711
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:34,720
carlos is claiming that

1712
01:06:39,910 --> 01:06:37,119
jessup didn't commit suicide he was in

1713
01:06:41,349 --> 01:06:39,920
fact he in fact faked his suicide

1714
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:41,359
not

1715
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:45,440
was murdered it was faked because he

1716
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:48,160
killed the assassin sent to kill him

1717
01:06:53,589 --> 01:06:50,640
then he took that assassin's

1718
01:06:55,829 --> 01:06:53,599
identity it gets stranger from there

1719
01:06:58,309 --> 01:06:55,839
believe me so how did jessup this

1720
01:07:00,789 --> 01:06:58,319
mild-mannered astronomer slash car part

1721
01:07:03,430 --> 01:07:00,799
salesman slash ufo author you know

1722
01:07:05,670 --> 01:07:03,440
defeat a professional assassin and then

1723
01:07:07,750 --> 01:07:05,680
steal his identity

1724
01:07:09,510 --> 01:07:07,760
well he had help one of our government

1725
01:07:11,510 --> 01:07:09,520
agencies and i can't say which one

1726
01:07:13,190 --> 01:07:11,520
helped him trap the guy they'd planned

1727
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:13,200
for that day a long time because there

1728
01:07:17,589 --> 01:07:15,680
were communist agents tailing jessop you

1729
01:07:19,589 --> 01:07:17,599
see he knew a whole lot about scientific

1730
01:07:21,349 --> 01:07:19,599
things like radar and magnetics and that

1731
01:07:23,349 --> 01:07:21,359
experiment and they wanted to know what

1732
01:07:25,109 --> 01:07:23,359
he knew so they were trying to kidnap

1733
01:07:26,950 --> 01:07:25,119
him and after they had found out what

1734
01:07:30,390 --> 01:07:26,960
all jessup knew they would have killed

1735
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:32,549
so jessop was under seeker protection

1736
01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:34,720
from an unnamed government agency

1737
01:07:37,750 --> 01:07:36,400
because communist assassins were trying

1738
01:07:39,270 --> 01:07:37,760
to kill him because he knew too much

1739
01:07:41,190 --> 01:07:39,280
about various scientific things

1740
01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:41,200
including the philadelphia experiment

1741
01:07:46,230 --> 01:07:43,760
okay so that's where we are at this

1742
01:07:48,470 --> 01:07:46,240
point now carlos doesn't know he isn't

1743
01:07:50,950 --> 01:07:48,480
able to tell them when jessup actually

1744
01:07:54,549 --> 01:07:50,960
died um last he heard he was in

1745
01:07:57,109 --> 01:07:54,559
albuquerque in 1960 or 61 somewhere

1746
01:08:00,390 --> 01:07:57,119
around there at this point in dower's

1747
01:08:03,029 --> 01:08:00,400
narrative we get to 1994 march of 94 and

1748
01:08:05,670 --> 01:08:03,039
carlos passes away and she and her son

1749
01:08:07,109 --> 01:08:05,680
rey continue to investigate this and

1750
01:08:09,109 --> 01:08:07,119
they find

1751
01:08:11,829 --> 01:08:09,119
all of the stuff about him being carl

1752
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:11,839
allen social security numbers that don't

1753
01:08:16,550 --> 01:08:14,880
quite uh don't quite match up there's

1754
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:16,560
he's there's the same name under

1755
01:08:19,990 --> 01:08:17,839
different social security numbers it

1756
01:08:23,269 --> 01:08:20,000
gets very confusing but

1757
01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:23,279
somehow carl allen became carlos

1758
01:08:27,669 --> 01:08:24,640
alende

1759
01:08:29,510 --> 01:08:27,679
or olendi or ayande i'm so sick of

1760
01:08:32,630 --> 01:08:29,520
saying these names and will never say

1761
01:08:34,149 --> 01:08:32,640
any of them ever again once i'm done

1762
01:08:37,590 --> 01:08:34,159
with this but

1763
01:08:39,269 --> 01:08:37,600
ms dowers has a theory about where

1764
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:39,279
the name carlos

1765
01:08:43,349 --> 01:08:41,679
allende might have come from and why

1766
01:08:45,269 --> 01:08:43,359
that was being used

1767
01:08:47,110 --> 01:08:45,279
i think the name carlos alendi began

1768
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:47,120
much earlier than carl allen's entry

1769
01:08:51,189 --> 01:08:49,279
into the service i think rey's theory

1770
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:51,199
was correct that the navy or possibly

1771
01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:53,040
the oss used the name for several

1772
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:55,600
personages to keep the russians confused

1773
01:08:59,430 --> 01:08:57,359
and that these carlos allendes were kept

1774
01:09:01,430 --> 01:08:59,440
track of by using various middle names

1775
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:01,440
but all having the same social security

1776
01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:04,159
number it is possible the communists got

1777
01:09:08,709 --> 01:09:06,319
wise to that ploy and also created one

1778
01:09:11,110 --> 01:09:08,719
or more carlos allendes in an attempt to

1779
01:09:14,789 --> 01:09:11,120
rout out the real or original us carlos

1780
01:09:20,070 --> 01:09:18,470
so carlos allende is a cover name used

1781
01:09:22,070 --> 01:09:20,080
by government agencies there have been

1782
01:09:23,590 --> 01:09:22,080
many carlos allendes in order to confuse

1783
01:09:25,269 --> 01:09:23,600
the communists but now the communists

1784
01:09:27,669 --> 01:09:25,279
were trying to

1785
01:09:30,390 --> 01:09:27,679
i don't know flush out the one true

1786
01:09:32,229 --> 01:09:30,400
carlos allende that they want but why

1787
01:09:33,269 --> 01:09:32,239
would they want a man named carlos

1788
01:09:35,030 --> 01:09:33,279
allende

1789
01:09:37,510 --> 01:09:35,040
or carl allen

1790
01:09:39,669 --> 01:09:37,520
what is going on here this is so weird

1791
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:39,679
and so confusing and

1792
01:09:43,829 --> 01:09:41,920
my dear listeners i love you very much

1793
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:43,839
and i'm trying to make

1794
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:46,880
this dower's narrative as digestible as

1795
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:48,719
possible but i don't know if i'm

1796
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:51,199
actually doing that so time for the next

1797
01:09:54,870 --> 01:09:53,199
amazing revelation the two continue to

1798
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:54,880
do their research and then one night ray

1799
01:09:59,750 --> 01:09:57,199
wakes up his mother he has an idea he

1800
01:10:01,110 --> 01:09:59,760
has a theory about what might really be

1801
01:10:04,070 --> 01:10:01,120
going on

1802
01:10:05,669 --> 01:10:04,080
you awake i switched on my bedside lamp

1803
01:10:07,270 --> 01:10:05,679
yeah come on in

1804
01:10:09,189 --> 01:10:07,280
i could see the blue cover of moore's

1805
01:10:11,430 --> 01:10:09,199
book peeping from his armpit he was

1806
01:10:13,830 --> 01:10:11,440
holding a spot open in another book

1807
01:10:17,030 --> 01:10:13,840
i just had a brain flash ray said

1808
01:10:18,630 --> 01:10:17,040
oh yeah like what carlos is actually

1809
01:10:20,470 --> 01:10:18,640
morris jessup

1810
01:10:22,550 --> 01:10:20,480
ray dropped his bombshell then watched

1811
01:10:23,750 --> 01:10:22,560
me waiting for the news to sink in

1812
01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:23,760
i gaped

1813
01:10:27,189 --> 01:10:25,040
stunned

1814
01:10:28,950 --> 01:10:27,199
like carlos said he got the guy that was

1815
01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:28,960
sent to get him then he took over that

1816
01:10:33,750 --> 01:10:31,440
guy's identity carlos left out that the

1817
01:10:35,830 --> 01:10:33,760
guy's name was carlos salendi someone

1818
01:10:37,510 --> 01:10:35,840
helped jessup relocate with that as his

1819
01:10:40,950 --> 01:10:37,520
new name like in the witness protection

1820
01:10:45,189 --> 01:10:42,950
i don't think there's anything i can say

1821
01:10:47,030 --> 01:10:45,199
about that i'll just move on to another

1822
01:10:48,310 --> 01:10:47,040
selection where they expand on this a

1823
01:10:50,229 --> 01:10:48,320
little bit more

1824
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:50,239
and sort of

1825
01:10:55,110 --> 01:10:52,480
poke logical holes in their own argument

1826
01:10:56,229 --> 01:10:55,120
but then sort of fill those holes kind

1827
01:10:58,630 --> 01:10:56,239
of

1828
01:11:00,390 --> 01:10:58,640
okay so we figured out that in 1943

1829
01:11:01,750 --> 01:11:00,400
jessup was known as carlos elendi to

1830
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:01,760
keep him from being kidnapped and

1831
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:04,000
executed by communists right

1832
01:11:06,630 --> 01:11:05,040
right

1833
01:11:08,390 --> 01:11:06,640
well then when jessup started getting

1834
01:11:10,310 --> 01:11:08,400
letters from carlos alendi why didn't

1835
01:11:12,229 --> 01:11:10,320
the guys at onr know those letters were

1836
01:11:15,110 --> 01:11:12,239
from jessup himself the guy they

1837
01:11:16,950 --> 01:11:15,120
themselves had named carlos alendi

1838
01:11:19,750 --> 01:11:16,960
i stared at rey

1839
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:19,760
which would mean i said slowly that the

1840
01:11:24,149 --> 01:11:22,000
navy probably put jessup up to the whole

1841
01:11:26,310 --> 01:11:24,159
thing the annotating of the book writing

1842
01:11:28,470 --> 01:11:26,320
the letters to himself from carlos

1843
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:28,480
alendi and making a big to-do about it

1844
01:11:37,270 --> 01:11:31,120
all even probably having just noise it

1845
01:11:41,750 --> 01:11:40,630
why at this point why not i am

1846
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:41,760
there's a part of me that wants to

1847
01:11:44,470 --> 01:11:43,440
believe their story that the entire

1848
01:11:46,149 --> 01:11:44,480
jessup

1849
01:11:50,790 --> 01:11:46,159
allende thing was

1850
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:50,800
a complex bluff to cover up some aspect

1851
01:11:54,709 --> 01:11:52,960
of naval research during the war that

1852
01:11:56,630 --> 01:11:54,719
has nothing to do with anything that we

1853
01:11:58,870 --> 01:11:56,640
think the philadelphia experiment has to

1854
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:58,880
do with but something else that they

1855
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:00,960
desperately wanted to keep under wraps

1856
01:12:06,870 --> 01:12:02,560
at least for the time being and then it

1857
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:06,880
just kind of gets completely out of hand

1858
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:08,880
meanwhile there's a whole bunch of stuff

1859
01:12:13,030 --> 01:12:11,600
in between these sections i'm giving you

1860
01:12:14,470 --> 01:12:13,040
that that

1861
01:12:16,390 --> 01:12:14,480
this book could have been about half as

1862
01:12:18,709 --> 01:12:16,400
long as what i'm saying but we're

1863
01:12:20,390 --> 01:12:18,719
starting to see signs that they're

1864
01:12:22,630 --> 01:12:20,400
getting a little

1865
01:12:25,590 --> 01:12:22,640
paranoid um

1866
01:12:26,709 --> 01:12:25,600
ms dowers says that she she

1867
01:12:28,550 --> 01:12:26,719
doesn't

1868
01:12:29,990 --> 01:12:28,560
doubt that one once the book is

1869
01:12:31,750 --> 01:12:30,000
published that

1870
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:31,760
that records that they've looked at that

1871
01:12:35,270 --> 01:12:34,000
verify their ideas will be changed so

1872
01:12:37,189 --> 01:12:35,280
nobody will ever know that they were

1873
01:12:40,470 --> 01:12:37,199
right and that she herself will be

1874
01:12:42,630 --> 01:12:40,480
targeted and her son rey seems to be

1875
01:12:46,310 --> 01:12:42,640
i don't know kind of imagining some kind

1876
01:12:48,550 --> 01:12:46,320
of naval takeover of the united states

1877
01:12:51,030 --> 01:12:48,560
he turned the knobs and stopped

1878
01:12:52,790 --> 01:12:51,040
have you noticed the flag lately

1879
01:12:53,910 --> 01:12:52,800
well yeah i see one every now and then

1880
01:12:55,350 --> 01:12:53,920
why

1881
01:12:56,630 --> 01:12:55,360
i've been noticing the blue where the

1882
01:12:58,630 --> 01:12:56,640
stars are

1883
01:13:00,149 --> 01:12:58,640
it used to be blue blue like the blue of

1884
01:13:02,390 --> 01:13:00,159
the sky overhead

1885
01:13:04,950 --> 01:13:02,400
the newer flags i've seen have a navy

1886
01:13:06,870 --> 01:13:04,960
blue field for the stars so are we the

1887
01:13:08,709 --> 01:13:06,880
united states of america

1888
01:13:10,950 --> 01:13:08,719
or are we becoming the united states of

1889
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:10,960
the navy

1890
01:13:14,470 --> 01:13:12,480
and do you know about the gold fringe

1891
01:13:16,390 --> 01:13:14,480
around the edge of the flags that means

1892
01:13:19,110 --> 01:13:16,400
the court has no jurisdiction over you

1893
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:19,120
because that's admiralty law i was

1894
01:13:23,669 --> 01:13:22,239
waiting for that to appear but it didn't

1895
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:23,679
we're getting to the end of the book and

1896
01:13:29,189 --> 01:13:28,080
honestly to the end of my sanity

1897
01:13:32,229 --> 01:13:29,199
she

1898
01:13:36,070 --> 01:13:32,239
closes things out by laying out exactly

1899
01:13:37,830 --> 01:13:36,080
what she thinks her book accomplished

1900
01:13:40,390 --> 01:13:37,840
although this volume is not conclusive

1901
01:13:42,390 --> 01:13:40,400
it does three things one it reports what

1902
01:13:44,630 --> 01:13:42,400
one man told my son and me

1903
01:13:46,550 --> 01:13:44,640
two it shares the information received

1904
01:13:48,310 --> 01:13:46,560
from various sources verifying some

1905
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:48,320
facets of the mystery

1906
01:13:52,709 --> 01:13:50,800
three it shows the lines of logic my son

1907
01:13:54,390 --> 01:13:52,719
and i used and how right or wrong we

1908
01:13:56,149 --> 01:13:54,400
arrived at our opinions

1909
01:13:57,830 --> 01:13:56,159
this book is the truth as much as can be

1910
01:13:59,590 --> 01:13:57,840
determined by those aspects of that

1911
01:14:01,669 --> 01:13:59,600
question mark in history

1912
01:14:03,990 --> 01:14:01,679
neither my son nor i had the education

1913
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:04,000
or desire to attempt to prove the fact

1914
01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:10,229
and that's the thing this is much more

1915
01:14:19,030 --> 01:14:11,920
about

1916
01:14:20,709 --> 01:14:19,040
philadelphia experiment

1917
01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:20,719
itself which is actually kind of

1918
01:14:24,870 --> 01:14:22,480
refreshing

1919
01:14:27,510 --> 01:14:24,880
here's the thing i i

1920
01:14:30,229 --> 01:14:27,520
you you hear about what she's arguing in

1921
01:14:32,229 --> 01:14:30,239
this book and you want to

1922
01:14:34,790 --> 01:14:32,239
you want to laugh at it you you want to

1923
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:34,800
make fun of it and you just you just

1924
01:14:40,550 --> 01:14:37,760
can't and if you try i'm going to

1925
01:14:41,430 --> 01:14:40,560
probably hate you because i love this

1926
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:41,440
book

1927
01:14:43,750 --> 01:14:42,480
um

1928
01:14:46,070 --> 01:14:43,760
i love

1929
01:14:48,390 --> 01:14:46,080
this mother and son

1930
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:48,400
who have this mystery weirdo and they're

1931
01:14:52,709 --> 01:14:49,840
trying to figure him out and they're

1932
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,719
reading all the books we've read about

1933
01:14:56,630 --> 01:14:54,640
this during this process and they're

1934
01:14:59,189 --> 01:14:56,640
coming at it from a point of view that

1935
01:15:01,430 --> 01:14:59,199
hasn't been informed by being paranormal

1936
01:15:02,470 --> 01:15:01,440
goofballs for the last 20 years of their

1937
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:02,480
life

1938
01:15:06,550 --> 01:15:04,800
like me and

1939
01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:06,560
they're they're coming to conclusions

1940
01:15:10,790 --> 01:15:08,320
that are

1941
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:10,800
maybe absolutely goofy

1942
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:12,719
but

1943
01:15:15,910 --> 01:15:14,159
i don't know

1944
01:15:17,189 --> 01:15:15,920
and deep down

1945
01:15:19,189 --> 01:15:17,199
what i see

1946
01:15:21,350 --> 01:15:19,199
are two people

1947
01:15:23,750 --> 01:15:21,360
who are probably

1948
01:15:26,630 --> 01:15:23,760
deeply decent people

1949
01:15:29,110 --> 01:15:26,640
who made friends with a strange guy who

1950
01:15:31,350 --> 01:15:29,120
loved to tell stories who was a leg

1951
01:15:35,189 --> 01:15:31,360
puller from way back who faked a heart

1952
01:15:37,510 --> 01:15:35,199
attack so well they had to do three ekgs

1953
01:15:39,830 --> 01:15:37,520
who wrote strange letters to the office

1954
01:15:41,590 --> 01:15:39,840
of nate to an author and

1955
01:15:44,470 --> 01:15:41,600
weird books to the office of naval

1956
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:44,480
research who wouldn't answer a question

1957
01:15:50,149 --> 01:15:47,440
straight or the same way twice who

1958
01:15:53,030 --> 01:15:50,159
changed his story numerous times

1959
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:53,040
who enjoyed living on the fringes of

1960
01:15:58,790 --> 01:15:56,320
society and reveled in the kind of

1961
01:16:02,790 --> 01:15:58,800
freedom that gave him to slip in and out

1962
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:02,800
of people's lives in extraordinarily

1963
01:16:08,870 --> 01:16:06,400
let's be honest irritating ways

1964
01:16:10,390 --> 01:16:08,880
and they got drawn up in this

1965
01:16:11,910 --> 01:16:10,400
and she thought she was on to something

1966
01:16:13,110 --> 01:16:11,920
and she wrote a book and maybe she was

1967
01:16:16,709 --> 01:16:13,120
onto something

1968
01:16:19,189 --> 01:16:16,719
maybe morris k jessup was carlos allende

1969
01:16:20,470 --> 01:16:19,199
i don't think that's true

1970
01:16:22,790 --> 01:16:20,480
but

1971
01:16:25,030 --> 01:16:22,800
i think we owe it to

1972
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:25,040
pd dowers to not

1973
01:16:31,669 --> 01:16:27,600
just laugh it off

1974
01:16:35,030 --> 01:16:31,679
she died last year last april i did some

1975
01:16:36,630 --> 01:16:35,040
googling around and um petey dowers is

1976
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:36,640
phyllis neuschwanger

1977
01:16:42,550 --> 01:16:39,360
um she used a pseudonym um

1978
01:16:44,149 --> 01:16:42,560
a a previous name she was uh

1979
01:16:47,270 --> 01:16:44,159
it's her maiden name she was born

1980
01:16:48,709 --> 01:16:47,280
phyllis dowers neuschwanger was her her

1981
01:16:51,990 --> 01:16:48,719
married name

1982
01:16:52,870 --> 01:16:52,000
she died last year at the age of 84 and

1983
01:16:54,630 --> 01:16:52,880
from

1984
01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:54,640
everything written

1985
01:17:00,550 --> 01:16:57,840
in her obituary she was a

1986
01:17:02,390 --> 01:17:00,560
wonderful person

1987
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:02,400
her husband left her

1988
01:17:05,830 --> 01:17:04,320
she raised

1989
01:17:09,430 --> 01:17:05,840
how many children

1990
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:09,440
looking here she raised eight children

1991
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:11,280
as a single mother from the time the

1992
01:17:17,110 --> 01:17:13,840
youngest was only a baby

1993
01:17:19,189 --> 01:17:17,120
they had very little she jury rigged

1994
01:17:21,910 --> 01:17:19,199
ways to keep the house warm

1995
01:17:24,149 --> 01:17:21,920
by making her own ductwork out of trash

1996
01:17:26,950 --> 01:17:24,159
bags and channeling the warmth from a

1997
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:26,960
kerosene heater all over the house so

1998
01:17:31,189 --> 01:17:29,120
everybody would be warm and the children

1999
01:17:34,390 --> 01:17:31,199
who wrote the obituary say it sounds

2000
01:17:36,709 --> 01:17:34,400
funny and unsafe but it actually worked

2001
01:17:38,630 --> 01:17:36,719
she made the kids clothes out of

2002
01:17:41,510 --> 01:17:38,640
hand-me-downs sheets or other sources of

2003
01:17:43,669 --> 01:17:41,520
fabric she used a treadle sewing machine

2004
01:17:45,030 --> 01:17:43,679
not an electric one

2005
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:45,040
whenever there was a wedding she would

2006
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:46,560
be the one to volunteer to make the

2007
01:17:52,470 --> 01:17:48,880
corsage's boutonnieres bouquets she was

2008
01:17:53,910 --> 01:17:52,480
a wonderful flower arranger

2009
01:17:56,830 --> 01:17:53,920
she

2010
01:17:58,709 --> 01:17:56,840
was proud of her book they said

2011
01:18:01,350 --> 01:17:58,719
and

2012
01:18:03,590 --> 01:18:01,360
i don't know it

2013
01:18:04,630 --> 01:18:03,600
i find it very affecting and i wish i

2014
01:18:07,590 --> 01:18:04,640
would have met her and i wish i could

2015
01:18:09,669 --> 01:18:07,600
have talked to her but you know

2016
01:18:12,310 --> 01:18:09,679
you miss those opportunities when

2017
01:18:13,669 --> 01:18:12,320
you don't know a book exists for a while

2018
01:18:15,830 --> 01:18:13,679
and then you're scared to order from the

2019
01:18:18,229 --> 01:18:15,840
website because it looks shady as heck

2020
01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,239
for a much better and more thoughtful

2021
01:18:22,310 --> 01:18:20,800
assessment of this book than i was able

2022
01:18:23,910 --> 01:18:22,320
to give

2023
01:18:25,910 --> 01:18:23,920
there's a link to david halperin's

2024
01:18:29,910 --> 01:18:25,920
review of it in the show notes for this

2025
01:18:38,229 --> 01:18:30,870
i think

2026
01:18:43,750 --> 01:18:40,870
thanks for listening

2027
01:18:46,709 --> 01:18:43,760
next time we will finish this up with

2028
01:18:49,189 --> 01:18:46,719
the rest of it some show notes are in

2029
01:18:51,510 --> 01:18:49,199
the show notes rather some links are in

2030
01:18:53,030 --> 01:18:51,520
the show notes and i just want to give a

2031
01:18:55,510 --> 01:18:53,040
shout out to some of those people

2032
01:18:57,830 --> 01:18:55,520
johnkeel.com has lots of scans of those

2033
01:19:00,630 --> 01:18:57,840
papers robert gorman's website has that

2034
01:19:02,709 --> 01:19:00,640
fate article and a link to lots of

2035
01:19:05,590 --> 01:19:02,719
photographs of documents houses in

2036
01:19:07,590 --> 01:19:05,600
pennsylvania all kinds of stuff the

2037
01:19:10,070 --> 01:19:07,600
philadelphia experiment website at

2038
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:10,080
de173.com

2039
01:19:15,189 --> 01:19:12,960
has more information than i will ever be

2040
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:15,199
able to absorb and i bet you won't be

2041
01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:16,320
able to

2042
01:19:21,669 --> 01:19:19,520
either for this episode i used it for

2043
01:19:24,470 --> 01:19:21,679
so much material and background and

2044
01:19:26,149 --> 01:19:24,480
stuff that didn't even have a way

2045
01:19:27,510 --> 01:19:26,159
to fit in here

2046
01:19:28,870 --> 01:19:27,520
thanks for listening

2047
01:19:31,510 --> 01:19:28,880
remember to send in your questions and

2048
01:19:33,189 --> 01:19:31,520
comments and we'll get to them next week

2049
01:19:35,430 --> 01:19:33,199
our associate producer is simpson j

2050
01:19:38,149 --> 01:19:35,440
hanover the saucer life is a production

2051
01:19:39,990 --> 01:19:38,159
of chiso simpson jahannover iii rather

2052
01:19:43,350 --> 01:19:40,000
the saucer life is a production of chiso

2053
01:19:44,550 --> 01:19:43,360
media llc chiso media our heart is with

2054
01:19:47,830 --> 01:19:44,560
the people

2055
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:50,070
till next time keep watching the skies

2056
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:52,560
because the skies are watching you and i